141 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Fierostetz, on 10 October 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

True, at the cost of greater exposure and heat.

ALSO - laser weapons bring that old bugbear... "hit detection". Hitscan weapons currently have rubbish hit detection for some players. My personal hit detection is great for ballistics everywhere, terrible for hitscan weapons from home, downright heroic for hitscan weapons from my dad's house or my office where I've occasionally played while eating lunch... Online gaming is maddening



How old are you? I'm just wondering if it has something to do with diminishing reflexes. Call of duty vs. 12 year olds comes to mind - those kids are *fast* (and they have really dirty mouths!).

Massed laser fire isn't the greatest. Even the WubShee, which should have less ticks than normal or Clan lasers; at around 6, if they tick every tenth of a second, can be fairly poor.

I guess that also makes missing ticks more noticeable. I'll assume more lasers adds to the issues?

[Roland]

Fierostetz, on 10 October 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

I don't know that it's so much a "problem" as just being "way different than TT".

This is true in some ways, but what makes it a problem is that other elements of the game are effectively assuming that certain elements of TT balance are in place, and instant weapons convergence makes that assumption untrue.

For instance, the most straightforward example of this is the armor model.

The armor model in MWO is basically taken directly from TT, with its values doubled.

Yet, even with doubling values, the underlying damage model is still effectively assuming that weapons will spread damage all over a mech randomly.

Since they don't do that, and since I can fire a ton of weapons and have them all hit the same location, this kind of breaks the damage model... An assault mech like an atlas, for instance, has a MOUNTAIN of armor... but against a skilled shooter, most of that armor midaswell not even be there. For instance, unless he's stripped his legs and I see that as a vulnerability, I'm pretty much never going to ACCIDENTALLY hit his legs. That's 168 points of armor (and another 84 points of internal structure) that basically has no utility when deciding how much damage that mech can survive. And yet the damage model, taken from TT, is still assuming that the armor and strucure there will be absorbing damage, and using that to balance that mech's survivability against that of other mechs.

So, consider this holistically. An atlas has a total of 614 points of armor. A Jenner has 238 points. So the atlas can take an extra 376 damage to its overall armor. That's a lot of punishment.

But if I'm focusing damage on his CT, then the difference is reduced to 124 vs. 44.. or only 80 points. That's a mere 21% of the punishment difference assuming random damage spread.

Thus, the damage model kind of breaks down... which means that the weapons balance breaks down as well.

So you're right, in that perfect weapons convergence isn't inherently a problem from a pure game design perspective... but when you make that kind of change to the fundamental assumptions of the overall game system, then you basically have to throw out all of the other stuff as well. You can't do what we have here in MWO, where you throw out the weapons spread, but keep the other game mechanics which assume that spread is going to be in place.

[Xtrekker]

Fierostetz, on 10 October 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

How old are you? I'm just wondering if it has something to do with diminishing reflexes. Call of duty vs. 12 year olds comes to mind - those kids are *fast* (and they have really dirty mouths!).

Haha, yep. 43. We were mainly a 30-ish group in MW4. I've definitely hit my twitch threshold. But to be fair, I've never really cared for twitch games. Had enough of railing people in Quake 2 to last a lifetime.

[Voivode]

Some maps need to be 8 v 8 (river city / forest colony) and some are fine in 12 v 12 (Crimson Straight). Improving time to kill can be done by having appropriate group to map size ratio and also having maps that are less conducive to deathballing. Go play MegaMeks and have 1 mech round a corner in front of 12. Even with straight TT rules, that mech goes down hard. Better maps and some maps getting smaller groups would increase time to kill without having to change a thing about the weapons.

[Clit Beastwood]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Massed laser fire isn't the greatest. Even the WubShee, which should have less ticks than normal or Clan lasers; at around 6, if they tick every tenth of a second, can be fairly poor.

I guess that also makes missing ticks more noticeable. I'll assume more lasers adds to the issues?

Yup! During the tourney I did an experiment.. since the server move I haven't been able to do near as much damage in my lights (all hitscan weapons for the most part, lasers and mg's) so I did one drop to test a theory...

Jenner
6ml
xl300
2jj

weapons groups
1- 3ml left
2- 3ml right
3- 6ml chain

What I changed
weapon groups
1- 3ml left chain
2- 3ml right chain
3- 6ml chain

SO - chain fire only. This drop is the result of the test
My best jenner drop since the server move, despite the HUGE increase in exposure time required to chain rather than damage-dump.

Xtrekker, on 10 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Haha, yep. 43. We were mainly a 30-ish group in MW4. I've definitely hit my twitch threshold. But to be fair, I've never really cared for twitch games. Had enough of railing people in Quake 2 to last a lifetime.

Did an event a while back called "scourging of the locusts" - all locusts with no armor and erppcs... very much like quake with railguns

Edited by Fierostetz, 10 October 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lordred, on 10 October 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

So if we Doubled armor to increase the Time to Kill (TTK), so why dont we just lower some of the weapons damage so that they fall inline with the armor now?

This wont be TL:DR its just a simple graph.

Blue is 10 Second AVG for Damage in MWO
Red is 10 Second AVG for Doubling Table Top
Yellow is 10 Second AVG for Table Top Damage.

So, what if we just made the weapons more consistent to the armor?

because a lot of us don't want Papercutwarrior Online.

AC20s, Gauss Rifles and PPCs were weapons to be feared. They already are doing the equivalent of half damage. Last thing I want to see is this become like resident evil or those "health bar" games where you die from 100 papercut hits.

How about we keep focusing on the real issues, which are stupidly perfect aim and convergence, under essentially ALL circumstances? Heck, if they had done that right (reticle sway, situational CoF applied at the extremes, found a way to keep the CB convergence) in the first place, we might not have needed doubled armor at all.

But I'd much rather see a full 20 pt shot miss, if I didn't plan the shot right, then just keep hitting with my ac20 doing 5 shots per hit. That game exists, I think it was called Mechassault.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Fairly hard to twist 50 damage in .5 seconds. Or dual gauss. You have to stare at them at some point.

That is where preemptive movements come into play - where counterplay exists. You can always see loadouts.

Torso twisting can be hard. This isn't a bad thing. The difficult parts of any game is where skill is demonstrated.

Tombstoner, on 10 October 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Yes it should be, but an atlas should be able to face tank.

See, this is a fundamental disagreement that really highlights the two different camps in this game.

Facetanking is easy. It requires no effort. It's a facet of lazy, poor play. I don't think it should be rewarded, at all. Playing like that should always result in you getting killed, quickly.

In the end, this is a PvP competitive shooter. CW is the core of the game, which in itself is rooted in competitive play. For play to be competitive, differences in skill need to be highlighted.

[Xtrekker]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

because a lot of us don't want Papercutwarrior Online.

AC20s, Gauss Rifles and PPCs were weapons to be feared. They already are doing the equivalent of half damage. Last thing I want to see is this become like resident evil or those "health bar" games where you die from 100 papercut hits.

How about we keep focusing on the real issues, which are stupidly perfect aim and convergence, under essentially ALL circumstances? Heck, if they had done that right (reticle sway, situational CoF applied at the extremes, found a way to keep the CB convergence) in the first place, we might not have needed doubled armor at all.

But I'd much rather see a full 20 pt shot miss, if I didn't plan the shot right, then just keep hitting with my ac20 doing 5 shots per hit. That game exists, I think it was called Mechassault.

I dig your ordnance, but your method of delivery leaves much to be desired. Seriously, pulling the Mechassault card? You can do better.

[Clit Beastwood]

Adiuvo, on 10 October 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

That is where preemptive movements come into play - where counterplay exists. You can always see loadouts.

Torso twisting can be hard. This isn't a bad thing. The difficult parts of any game is where skill is demonstrated.

See, this is a fundamental disagreement that really highlights the two different camps in this game.

Facetanking is easy. It requires no effort. It's a facet of lazy, poor play. I don't think it should be rewarded, at all. Playing like that should always result in you getting killed, quickly.

In the end, this is a PvP competitive shooter. CW is the core of the game, which in itself is rooted in competitive play. For play to be competitive, differences in skill need to be highlighted.

Adiuvo. Put your hand on the screen so I can internet hi-5 you.

[Xtrekker]

Adiuvo, on 10 October 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

In the end, this is a PvP competitive shooter. CW is the core of the game, which in itself is rooted in competitive play. For play to be competitive, differences in skill need to be highlighted.

Funny, I think it's supposed to be a competitive sim.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

because a lot of us don't want Papercutwarrior Online.

AC20s, Gauss Rifles and PPCs were weapons to be feared. They already are doing the equivalent of half damage. Last thing I want to see is this become like resident evil or those "health bar" games where you die from 100 papercut hits.

How about we keep focusing on the real issues, which are stupidly perfect aim and convergence, under essentially ALL circumstances? Heck, if they had done that right (reticle sway, situational CoF applied at the extremes, found a way to keep the CB convergence) in the first place, we might not have needed doubled armor at all.

But I'd much rather see a full 20 pt shot miss, if I didn't plan the shot right, then just keep hitting with my ac20 doing 5 shots per hit. That game exists, I think it was called Mechassault.

I can't help but feel the other way. An AC20 deals 20 damage over the course of a TT turn. Not instantly, not in a single shell.

This is supposed to be a BattleTech game, as seen above, not CoD:3050.


We're never going to get a BattleTech game, but we shouldn't fall to CoD:3050 either. We'll stay in this limbo for the life of MWO, I imagine.

Where both parties will never be completely happy.

[Adiuvo]

Xtrekker, on 10 October 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Funny, I think it's supposed to be a competitive sim.

It's not and never has been. Basic design processes for this game to be simlike haven't been implemented since the start. There's no subsystems to manage, no fine adjustments to do.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xtrekker, on 10 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

I dig your ordnance, but your method of delivery leaves much to be desired. Seriously, pulling the Mechassault card? You can do better.

Adiuvo, on 10 October 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

That is where preemptive movements come into play - where counterplay exists. You can always see loadouts.

Torso twisting can be hard. This isn't a bad thing. The difficult parts of any game is where skill is demonstrated.

See, this is a fundamental disagreement that really highlights the two different camps in this game.

Facetanking is easy. It requires no effort. It's a facet of lazy, poor play. I don't think it should be rewarded, at all. Playing like that should always result in you getting killed, quickly.

In the end, this is a PvP competitive shooter. CW is the core of the game, which in itself is rooted in competitive play. For play to be competitive, differences in skill need to be highlighted.

Largely agree, though differences in ordnance SHOULD matter.

You take a the best Piloting/gunnery crew in the US Army in a Bradley, and stick him against a total noob in an M1A1, the Bradley guys might be able to figure out how to disable the Tank, but it's gonna be able to shrug off a LOT of ordinance, unless it's perfectly placed in a weak point. Whereas the Tank, really needs to land a single, lucky shot.

Any mech, faced with focused fire, indeed should wilt pretty fast (Though an Atlas should be able to weather it longer than say, a Firestarter, but due to hit registration, twisting and hitboxes, usually it's the opposite). But it is pretty insane to see it wilt 1v1 as easy as they do.

This has more to due with hitbox, and twist rates, than even piloting though.

Which is why I do feel certain mechs, like the Atlas, need buffs, but to things like their IS, which did wonders for making the HBK tougher and keep it's main gun a lot longer, than by neutering all weapons, or some crazy global uber armor increases.

One thing though, if you want to use the "PvP Competitive Shooter" card, the vast majority of truly "competitive" FPS specifically DO feature that reticle sway and situational CoF most of the "skill" crowd are howling against. Seems a little disingenuous to pull the FPOS card for one thing, but then rail against one of the pillars of Comp FPS in others.

Just sayin, man.

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

I can't help but feel the other way. An AC20 deals 20 damage over the course of a TT turn. Not instantly, not in a single shell.

This is supposed to be a BattleTech game, as seen above, not CoD:3050.


We're never going to get a BattleTech game, but we shouldn't fall to CoD:3050 either. We'll stay in this limbo for the life of MWO, I imagine.

Where both parties will never be completely happy.

Cool so do it the right way, the way pretty much all the other MW titles did. Slow down RoF. Not that all weapons need a 10 second recycle, but some should be a lot longer than they are now.

Also, Don't pull the Btech card without being ready for the consequences, since RANDOM hit locations are 100% Btech.

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 October 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

One thing though, if you want to use the "PvP Competitive Shooter" card, the vast majority of truly "competitive" FPS specifically DO feature that reticle sway and situational CoF most of the "skill" crowd are howling against. Seems a little disingenuous to pull the FPOS card for one thing, but then rail against one of the pillars of Comp FPS in others.

Just sayin, man.

Those systems are applied to automatic weapons, not single shot things like we have right now. Sniper rifles do not generally have sway or CoF when scoped. Just about every weapon in MWO behaves like a typical sniper rifle, including an AC20.

MWO also doesn't have a health pool. Getting shot decreases a components health, not the unit's health. CoF would be especially stupid to have here due to that - precision shots are too important and TTK is too long comparatively.

Edited by Adiuvo, 10 October 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 10 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Those systems are applied to automatic weapons, not single shot things like we have right now. Sniper rifles do not generally have sway or CoF when scoped. Just about every weapon in MWO behaves like a typical sniper rifle, including an AC20.

MWO also doesn't have a health pool. Getting shot decreases a components health, not the unit's health. CoF would be especially stupid to have here due to that - precision shots are too important and TTK is too long comparatively.

And one could argue, precision shots are too easy.

Also, just how stable are those sniper rifles when at full sprint?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 October 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

And one could argue, precision shots are too easy.

Also, just how stable are those sniper rifles when at full sprint?

If precision shots were too easy then I would expect the average player to actually hit components and not just the mech. Unfortunately, my time spent spectating has indicated that this isn't the case.

They aren't. Though, the only thing close to full sprint in this game is a light, and even those are stupid slow compared to movement in other games.

How accurate are sniper rifles when walking? Pretty accurate.

If you want the slow, lumbering play that this game actually does pretty well, then you can't exactly implement a speed based CoF without drastically slowing the game down even further.

[Aresye]

Xtrekker, on 10 October 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Funny, I think it's supposed to be a competitive sim.

It's a shooter with a "FEW" simulator aspects. Those "FEW" simulator aspects, such as torso twisting vs. leg direction, heat management, etc. are enough to throw off a good amount of the current player base.

Add things like weapon sway, more in-depth EW such as Active/Passive radar, slow and/or manually set convergence, etc. and you've successfully alienated 3/4 of the player base.

I'm all for adding more complicated systems, but the only thing this will do will do is make the game harder for new players, when already most of them can't even manage basic aim to save their life.

[Felio]

I think the doubling of health/armor was an overly simplistic idea. It would be fine if we only used the AC/2, but we don't. It increased durability inequitably in practice.

Let's demonstrate with the Atlas arm, which had 34 armor before being doubled, and pewpewpew it with a Medium Laser:

First 34 armor: 6 shots leave 4 armor remaining. One more would leave it exposed.
Next 34 armor: 6 shots leave 8 armor remaining. Two more would leave it exposed.

So instead of 7 shots to expose the arm, it takes 15. The Atlas' durability versus the Medium Laser was increased by 114%.

Now the Trebuchet:

First 16 armor: 3 shots leave 1 armor remaining. One more would leave it exposed.
Next 16 armor: 3 shots leave 2 armor remaining. One more would leave it exposed.

So instead of 4 shots to expose the arm, it takes 8. The Trebuchet's durability versus the Medium Laser was increased by 100%.

If we do this with a heavier-hitting weapon or a smaller 'mech, it becomes more dramatic. For example, a light mech's durability against an AC/20 was increased by 0%.

Edited by Felio, 10 October 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Xtrekker]

Aresye, on 10 October 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

It's a shooter with a "FEW" simulator aspects. Those "FEW" simulator aspects, such as torso twisting vs. leg direction, heat management, etc. are enough to throw off a good amount of the current player base.

Add things like weapon sway, more in-depth EW such as Active/Passive radar, slow and/or manually set convergence, etc. and you've successfully alienated 3/4 of the player base.

I'm all for adding more complicated systems, but the only thing this will do will do is make the game harder for new players, when already most of them can't even manage basic aim to save their life.

WANT

Sooooo much better than thwack, haha, yer dead, ggclose, l2p n00b.

Edited by Xtrekker, 10 October 2014 - 10:43 AM.

[Kirkland Langue]

As others have said, the problem is the convergence and pin point accuracy.

To be honest, every weapon in the game should get a new attribute: accuracy - and then make the actual hit spot a random location within a radius determined by that weapon's accuracy rating.

Then even if every weapon you fire is aimed at exactly the same location - their actual hit spots would vary a little bit.