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Armor Was Doubled To Increase Ttk.

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#121 Mcgral18

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:52 AM

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 12 October 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:



I get TT had random hit locations, but im saying, if MWO had TT Armor values and this PPFLD mechanics, the TTK musta been insanely fast......I can only imagine how fast mechs must have died in beta with single armor and not doubled...

It would almost be cool if this game used a Cof, atleast one as big as the center reticule. That would give us some deviation, and maybe further out it would bloom some more. of course, i think lasers would need to be sped up in damage or else they would bloom so much their damage would be nill.


If weapons weren't at 3x RoF, it would have been less of an issue.

#122 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:57 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 12 October 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:


If weapons weren't at 3x RoF, it would have been less of an issue.



3x? So normally LL is supposed to have like a 9s recharge? Guass Rifle at like 18? LRM at like 20s?

Dang.

#123 Bront

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:00 PM

TTK is faster in MWO than it is in TT due to 2 major factors and several minor ones.

The Major Factors:
1) Weapons fire significantly faster in MWO than they do in TT, enough so that double armor isn't enough to compensate.
and
2) Human accuracy takes out random hit locations, allowing focus fire to hit locations.

Toning all weapons down by, say, 10-20% might help a bit, but you'll still have issues on the extreme end, like a light rounding a corner and getting one shot by a single mech. finding a good fix for FLD could help as well, but FLD isn't the only issue and fixing that won't make everything better.

The biggest problem with TTK is that not only does it punish mistakes gravely, it makes piloting a giant war machine seem a bit pointless. It's hard to feel powerful when you crumple so easily.

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 12 October 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:



3x? So normally LL is supposed to have like a 9s recharge? Guass Rifle at like 18? LRM at like 20s?

Dang.

Normal damage for every weapon in TT is once every 10 second. AC2, AC20, didn't matter. Each one shot once every 10 second.

#124 Ultimax

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:01 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 12 October 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:


If weapons weren't at 3x RoF, it would have been less of an issue.


That's not true really.

AC 20 deals 20 points, to a location it hits at half the armor we have.


So that's actually large single spike "alpha" impact by double.



For the Armor we have, it's like being hit with an AC 40.


So you might live longer to misses and no components being specifically targeted, but when you do get hit the impact would be much larger than it is here.



Being hit by dual gauss would be like (quad) 60 points here...


So if you cut armor in half, and cut RoF down by 66% you end up with large single spike damage straight up removing mechs left and right.

Alpha spikes would actually be larger, and more devastating. Think this game's playerbase could handle that?




I think harping on 3x RoF is a bit of a misnomer. No one hits exactly where they want, 100% of the time and no one gets 100% of their RoF on every weapon on every target all of the time.


The game is probably less dangerous, less "quick and the dead" the way its set up now - as opposed to the way it would be with 1/2 Armor and 66% slower RoF.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 12 October 2014 - 12:05 PM.


#125 Mcgral18

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:13 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 12 October 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:


That's not true really.

AC 20 deals 20 points, to a location it hits at half the armor we have.


So that's actually large single spike "alpha" impact by double.



For the Armor we have, it's like being hit with an AC 40.


So you might live longer to misses and no components being specifically targeted, but when you do get hit the impact would be much larger than it is here.



Being hit by dual gauss would be like (quad) 60 points here...


So if you cut armor in half, and cut RoF down by 66% you end up with large single spike damage straight up removing mechs left and right.

Alpha spikes would actually be larger, and more devastating. Think this game's playerbase could handle that?




I think harping on 3x RoF is a bit of a misnomer. No one hits exactly where they want, 100% of the time and no one gets 100% of their RoF on every weapon on every target all of the time.


The game is probably less dangerous, less "quick and the dead" the way its set up now - as opposed to the way it would be with 1/2 Armor and 66% slower RoF.


AC20 also wasn't single shot; Heavy Rifles were, and those are only 6 damage, or about an AC10s worth in this game. One shot to deal 6 damage, long reload time, 8 tons 3 crit slots.

AC20 would deal that 20 damage over a period of shots.

PPC, lets say 7 damage 7 heat 7 second cooldown.

Gauss, 10 damage, 6.5 second cooldown?

AC2 would need a buff.


But something along those lines. Those would be TT stats properly implemented. Not AC40-AC60s or Super Heavy Rifles.

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 12 October 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:



3x? So normally LL is supposed to have like a 9s recharge? Guass Rifle at like 18? LRM at like 20s?

Dang.


AC2 is at 14. Used to be at 20.

Fun stuff, isn't it?

#126 Ultimax

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:25 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 12 October 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:


AC2 is at 14. Used to be at 20.

Fun stuff, isn't it?


Only if you assume 100% accuracy, which is clearly not the case at all.


It's not an AC 14 or a 20, or people would be using it. ;)


If we could only fire once every 10s, and everyone had half armor - players would build for the single largest spike they could muster and basically one shot targets.

#127 Mcgral18

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 12:28 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 12 October 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:


Only if you assume 100% accuracy, which is clearly not the case at all.


It's not an AC 14 or a 20, or people would be using it. ;)


If we could only fire once every 10s, and everyone had half armor - players would build for the single largest spike they could muster and basically one shot targets.


It used to be an AC40, same as the AC10 currently is.

Isn't it an AC28 right now?

PGI isn't about to properly port TT stats, so this arguing is pointless.


Would have been nice to change them for private matches, though. The ability to create a proper BattleTech game, complete with rational heat system and weapon stats.

Magical convergence would still be an issue, unless they would let us touch that.

#128 Tarogato

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 04:53 PM

Here's my thoughts on increasing the armour to 250% or whatever the current argument is now:
• Maps that tend to stalemate (like River City) would see more action because lobbing PPCs and LRMs across the channel at the other base wouldn't do as much damage - it would get boring really fast and time would start wearing down, creating an incentive to brawl more.

• People wouldn't be as afraid to walk around a corner or start a push, so we'd see less poking and more brawling.

• Maps like Alpine would need their time limit increased (actually, I'm in favour of doing this anyway, I can't tell you how many times I've had a bright idea and once I command my team into the position I had envisioned, there's only 7 minutes left in the match. That's a bit dumb - we have such a large map and hardly enough time to use it tactically.)

View PostRebas Kradd, on 10 October 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

However...higher TTK would also give more breathing room for nuance in the game, such as targeting of components, noticeable battle damage like destroyed arm actuators, and opportunity for individual reinforcement. Right now, such things are completely buried by the intensity of the firefights. PGI isn't going to bother with immersive elements like leg actuators when you're 0.7 seconds from death anyway.

I agree that walking into five heavy mechs should be a death sentence. But when the entire match is composed of such encounters, there's a problem. 12v12 is doing that, and it has to be accounted for.

Not by blindly reducing weapon damage, though. Perhaps Victor's frequent suggestion of reducing ROF on heavier weapons should be looked into.
I'm agreeing with the notion that we should raise TTK by some method or another (frankly I don't care how) and Rebas makes the perfect point right here: more nuanced play. Right now gameplay consists of "Oh look, a mech, let's only aim at it's CT because that will put it out of the match ASAP." when game play should be more like "well, that's an Atlas, it won't go down easy, but it's arms will come off pretty fast." Since it would take so much more time to down an Atlas, we might be more tactical about where we're aiming rather than consider shots on anything but the CT to be wasted, which is how the game feels right now.

View PostVoivode, on 10 October 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

Some maps need to be 8 v 8 (river city / forest colony) and some are fine in 12 v 12 (Crimson Straight). Improving time to kill can be done by having appropriate group to map size ratio and also having maps that are less conducive to deathballing.

View PostDock Steward, on 11 October 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:


I really liked 12 v 12 when it first came out, but 8 v 8 would probably help with a LOT of things. MM would probably be able to build teams with closer Elo's, the small maps wouldn't be so cluttered....could be a good move for the devs to consider.
While I don't think this is a viable solution, I do think it should be done regardless. Maps like River City and Forest Colony just ache from being overpopulated during matches. I know it's slightly off-topic, but why can't we have matchmaker decide the map first, and if the map is one of those smaller ones, only match 8v8?

View PostKirkland Langue, on 10 October 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

As others have said, the problem is the convergence and pin point accuracy.

To be honest, every weapon in the game should get a new attribute: accuracy - and then make the actual hit spot a random location within a radius determined by that weapon's accuracy rating.

Then even if every weapon you fire is aimed at exactly the same location - their actual hit spots would vary a little bit.
This is CoF as far as I'm concerned, and while so much of the community seems completely against, I sure would like to see how it would pan out on a test server.

Edited by Tarogato, 12 October 2014 - 04:55 PM.


#129 Burktross

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 05:00 PM

Waitwaitwait... when did we double armor?

#130 Mcgral18

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 05:09 PM

View PostBurktross, on 12 October 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

Waitwaitwait... when did we double armor?


Long time ago. Before closed beta?

#131 Lordred

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 05:46 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 12 October 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:


Long time ago. Before closed beta?


During.

#132 Burktross

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 05:58 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 12 October 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:


Long time ago. Before closed beta?

Oh...
Well I either didn't remember that or it came before me. I dropped in near the end of closed beta.

#133 Glythe

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 08:16 PM

Really we're back to the main issue.....

Short range weapons do not do enough damage (per ton for the heat) at short range to justify not having long range. This was the reason why you saw people brawling with PPCs during the PPC superweapon (read as poptart) era.

PGI needs to think about weapons as a lump of clay. You can't stretch it in every direction. You can go for long range and you can go for infinite ammo but then your damage should suck for the heat it produces.

This creates a choice for players as they can either have lame damage and long range or good damage and short range. Or they can *gasp* do something crazy and not boat and have a mix of weapon ranges. But that would probably create interesting gameplay.

Look at the clan laser vs the IS laser as one of the primary problems with this game. The clan laser has more than a 40% range advantage with a miniscule heat difference. That's just bad balance pure and simple.

#134 PappySmurf

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 08:20 PM

PGI is so full of shittt the armor numbers were doubled but I doubt the armor was really doubled in actual gameplay.The mechs are just as weak and easy to kill as they were in Closed beta.To be honest the mech armor sucks bad and mechs in the older PC MechWarrior games were much harder to kill and took a lot of damage before they died.

#135 H I A S

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 11:46 PM

View PostGlythe, on 12 October 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Really we're back to the main issue.....

Short range weapons do not do enough damage (per ton for the heat) at short range to justify not having long range. This was the reason why you saw people brawling with PPCs during the PPC superweapon (read as poptart) era.

PGI needs to think about weapons as a lump of clay. You can't stretch it in every direction. You can go for long range and you can go for infinite ammo but then your damage should suck for the heat it produces.

This creates a choice for players as they can either have lame damage and long range or good damage and short range. Or they can *gasp* do something crazy and not boat and have a mix of weapon ranges. But that would probably create interesting gameplay.

Look at the clan laser vs the IS laser as one of the primary problems with this game. The clan laser has more than a 40% range advantage with a miniscule heat difference. That's just bad balance pure and simple.


SRM have the best Damage per heat and ton.
Jumpsniping was Meta because they was Allrounder (random Maps) now it is the Vomit-TBR.

#136 NextGame

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 12:29 AM

I don't really want to play a game where I'm endlessly plinking away at an enemy mechs armour with a lil' chipper for a weapon when what I need is a jackhammer.

I'd rather see different types of armour upgrades being added to the game to allow for better protection against certain types of weapons, something that could give the player a decision to make in that area beyond what we currently have (being if you are a light take ferro, otherwise generally ignore).

Edited by NextGame, 13 October 2014 - 12:33 AM.


#137 PappySmurf

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:35 AM

NextGame said {I'd rather see different types of armor upgrades being added to the game to allow for better protection against certain types of weapons, something that could give the player a decision to make in that area beyond what we currently have (being if you are a light take ferro, otherwise generally ignore).
===============================================================================

We had that in MechWarrior2-MechWarrio4 three different armor types but this is MWO=MeekWarriorOnline not MechWarrior so don't get your hopes up. I would just be happy if the armor we had now even worked to stop any damage at all and gave the mechs some durability.

Edited by PappySmurf, 13 October 2014 - 07:36 AM.


#138 Mcgral18

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 07:37 AM

View PostPappySmurf, on 13 October 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

We had that in MechWarrior2-MechWarrio4 three different armor types but this is MWO=MeekWarriorOnline not MechWarrior so don't get your hopes up. I would just be happy if the armor we had now even worked to stop any damage at all and gave the mechs some durability.


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#139 YueFei

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 10:53 AM

View PostHiasRGB, on 12 October 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

SRM have the best Damage per heat and ton.
Jumpsniping was Meta because they was Allrounder (random Maps) now it is the Vomit-TBR.


ASRM6 only lands 60% of damage on desired hitbox... when the hitbox is a stationary front-facing Awesome's CT at 90 meters range in the Testing Grounds. You'll hit arms and legs on the Awesome, even with Artemis.

Clan SRMs are in a good place because they're half the weight of IS SRMs.

2x IS ASRM6 barely edge out an IS AC5 in TTK at 90 meters. Same weight (both 8 tons), more hardpoints (2 vs 1), more crit slots used for the SRMs (6 vs 4), so they're a bigger investment. Generates 250% more heat than the AC5 to get the kill. Gets the kill 23% faster than the AC5.

The spread needs to be tightened.

#140 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 13 October 2014 - 11:15 AM

View PostPappySmurf, on 12 October 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

PGI is so full of shittt the armor numbers were doubled but I doubt the armor was really doubled in actual gameplay.The mechs are just as weak and easy to kill as they were in Closed beta.To be honest the mech armor sucks bad and mechs in the older PC MechWarrior games were much harder to kill and took a lot of damage before they died.



What? Like Mechcommander? that game I dont even know how it calculates damage. and even those damage numbers werent TT, CERPPC was like 13.5dmg...

MW4? It to like doubled armor values, allowing a cougar to tank a double shot of UAC20 to the face and still get up...

And MW2, mechs died pretty damn fast in that game.





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