42 replies to this topic

[Archangel Dino]

So... are these things useful? Aside from critical damage, do MG's offer any tactical advantages in combat? Are there any tricks I'm missing? I currently run a Summoner with 2 ER-Large Lasers for long-range combat and 3 MG's for close-range combat (2 on the torso and 1 on my left arm).

[Thorqemada]

MGs be Hit scan and be used well with Lasers that also be hitscan (you aim at the target and do not lead the weapons as they imediately hit - the bullet spray of MGs is pure visual fluff).

Aside of that MGs be a waste of Tonnage...

Edited by Thorqemada, 10 October 2014 - 06:07 PM.

[Koniving]

Thor covered the important thing. Treat MGs like lasers, fire directly at the enemy and do not lead the bullets. The travel and hit is instantaneous.

An MG does 8 damage in 10 seconds. This pales even to the small laser (12 damage in 6.75 seconds). However, unlike the small laser which generates heat, the MG can keep firing. It is meant to be boated mind you. Where it really shines is once you get through the armor with a larger weapon, an MG can fry an enemy's AC/20 without having to destroy the body part holding it. It usually takes 1 to 2 seconds to destroy most AC/20s.

Against mech like a Dire Wolf if you can MG the ST with 4 MGs, you can destroy 2 of its UACs in about 3 seconds.

This is due to the especially high critical chances the MGs get.

[kosmos1214]

not true they are very handy the crit rolls have saved me more times then i can count they are not the best weapon but they are handy for 3 mguns you only need 1 ton of ammo and it lets u push your dps up a little at no heat cost

[Koniving]

If you don't have at least 2 MGs, though, it probably isn't worth bothering with.
4 is the sweet spot.
6 you may consider to be overpowered if you get some good weak spots.

[Katotonic]

Archangel Dino, on 10 October 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

So... are these things useful? Aside from critical damage, do MG's offer any tactical advantages in combat? Are there any tricks I'm missing? I currently run a Summoner with 2 ER-Large Lasers for long-range combat and 3 MG's for close-range combat (2 on the torso and 1 on my left arm).

It is the "aside from critical damage" line that makes them worthwhile. if you expect to boat MGs (as some Jagers do) they make their living off of eating up already damaged components. They are THE BEST thing to hit an unarmored area with, bar none. But the reverse is also true, they are THE WORST thing to hit an armored area with. In pretty much any build a single MG is probably worthless. When you get to 2 or more you start to be able to really knock down unarmored areas of enemy mechs.

So it depends on what you are trying to do with your build that makes them worthwhile or not. Many brawlers will carry them if they can to knock out already damaged mechs. But for a lot of builds or play styles they are not that useful.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

MGs are about as useful as Flamers, they're nice but you don't want to rely too heavily on them.

[Koniving]

If you tie MGs up with LBXs, you'd be surprised what you can accomplish.

[dr lao]

I took mine off my raven and just use two L lasers I put the extra tons towards my armor.

Edited by dr lao, 10 October 2014 - 07:01 PM.

[dragnier1]

One thing that has not yet been covered: MGs require you to focus on your target as you fire, which means you cannot fire and twist. This is why i removed it on my summoner D

[Tim East]

Haven't been able to make them shine for me since they randomly started sucking a while back. Still saving my Locust 1V in case I decide to do a crazy build or they get better, but I'm not holding out much hope for the latter.

On the flamer note, I tried a 6 flamer Thunderbolt as a joke. It was horrible, and I loved it.

[DoomEngine]

youre welcome

[Elizander]

Archangel Dino, on 10 October 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

So... are these things useful? Aside from critical damage, do MG's offer any tactical advantages in combat? Are there any tricks I'm missing? I currently run a Summoner with 2 ER-Large Lasers for long-range combat and 3 MG's for close-range combat (2 on the torso and 1 on my left arm).

MGs generally don't do anything against armor. You can just save some tonnage and keep the ammo low if you have the trigger discipline to fine them only when there is an armor breach and aim for that breach.

Don't fall into the trap of not torso twisting to avoid damage just so you can plink a fully armored direwolf with your machine guns.

[DivineEvil]

Destroying internal equipment is basically what MG's are standing for. Their damage is fine, but it's virtually impossible to effectively take out the armor from particular components. It's especially effective in ammo hunting, when you know there certainly will be ammo in a component you shoot.

6x MGs are primary weapons on Blackjack 'Arrow'. It's pointless to take one if you're not planning to use them. They're deadly against Lights and Mediums. For Jagermech-DD there is a capability to place those, but they're to little of a weapon for such a heavy chassis.

4x MGs are secondary weapons for Huginn and Ember. It's just enough for them to be the effective weapon array to be used for attacks from the rear, breaking Assault's primary weapons after armor has been stripped by their primary weapons.

3x MGs is barely a prominent secondary weapon. Even a Vindicator-1X who's supposed to use those with it's hardpoints is much better with 2xAC2 or heavier Ballistics instead, as it's not even enough to ward a pesky Light away.

2x MGs is a lackluster waste of tonnage on anything. Particularly noticeable on Anansi, where many players put them on for no reason, instead of using that tonnage to increase it's mobility, firepower or utility.

[JC Daxion]

DivineEvil, on 11 October 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

3x MGs is barely a prominent secondary weapon. Even a Vindicator-1X who's supposed to use those with it's hardpoints is much better with 2xAC2 or heavier Ballistics instead, as it's not even enough to ward a pesky Light away.

I have been running a cicada with 3MG's with an AC-10, and a SML for good luck. Mainly because i had an extra .5 tons, and i didn't think 8 more shots was worth it in the end. (tops 80 more damage, and i think the SML, adds more than that on a good match, and i almost never run out of Machine gun ammo. But for the handful of times i run out of both at least have something to poke away with at the end of the game. (like a legged mech you can get behind and conserve ammo, while you needle at it) I must say this mech is a total blast. You won't do a ton of damage as you just don't have the ammo for it. A great match is around 450-500 with 2-4 kills, and a bunch of assists. Good matches run in the 250-400 range most of the time. It kinda plays like HBK-4G with ac-20 and 4 tons, you need to make every shot count.

It tears up lights and mediums as the AC-10 opens holes and the MG's takes out the rest. It also does a number on anything that is engaging another mech Especially if it is damaged already like getting behind something that can't turn and shred it's back or just the classic shot of opportunity. I am working on elites now so i can't wait to see how it is once the rest is unlocked, and i finally add the increase target info module for even faster info gathering.

The mech is very much a lance support (stick with the heavies, and wait for the melee to ensue, or Light escort (play with a wolf pack and pound on mechs while they all play chase the spider/jenner and not realize you are as deadly as you are till it is to late.) Try it out.. it has been a lot of fun.

Edited by JC Daxion, 11 October 2014 - 05:25 AM.

[Mobile Ordnance Platform]

sometimes ill use mg, like even just 1 on odd builds
not to do damage ofc but as a psychological weapon

people dont feel comfortable when their internals are opened up and random mg rounds are chewing away near unstable ammos/weapons
or constant pressure on between your main weapon cooldowns
etc etc

[Koniving]

If crit damage to engines was in place in a meaningfully damaging way, MGs might be the most overpowered weapon in MWO.

Take out 3 crit slots and bam, a mech is dead.
In tabletop, take out 6 in the same ten seconds and you might have a stackpole. To mention it, a stackpole (after the author that started it), is when there are multiple breaches in the engine that occur before the safety systems of the hydrogen-powered fusion engine could come into place and/or ruptures the hydrogen fuel rods themselves. In either case while the explosion isn't actually nuclear (a common misconception), it is still enormous and covers several hundred meters that causes substantial damage.

This was an attempted stackpole.

Spoiler

Weapons fire for Black Hawk (Nova) Prime (Koniving)
ER Medium Laser at Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred); needs 4, rolls 8 : - Direct Blow - hits LT
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 8 damage to LT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
LIMB BLOWN OFF Left Arm blown off.
4 damage transfers to CT.
Critical hit on LT. Roll is (10+2) = 12; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on +Medium Laser.
CRITICAL HIT on +Medium Laser.
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 4 damage to CT.
1 Armor remaining.


ER Medium Laser at Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred); needs 4, rolls 4 : - Glancing Blow - hits RA
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 3 damage to RA.
5 Armor remaining.


ER Medium Laser at Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred); needs 4, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - hits HD
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 8 damage to HD.
Armor destroyed, 1 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on HD. Roll is (9+2) = 11; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Standard Cockpit.

*** Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) DESTROYED by pilot death! ***
CRITICAL HIT on Sensors.

Pilot of Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) "Ellis Ngilu" is already dead, so no damage is dealt!


ER Medium Laser at Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred); needs 4, rolls 7 : - Direct Blow - hits LA
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 8 damage to LA.
8 damage transfers to LT.
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 8 damage to LT.
8 damage transfers to CT.
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 8 damage to CT.
Armor destroyed, 14 Internal Structure remaining
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (9+2) = 11; 2 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on LRM 15 Ammo (7).
*** LRM 15 Ammo EXPLODES! 105 DAMAGE! ***
>Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) suffers catastrophic damage, but the autoeject system was engaged.

Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) must make a piloting skill check (landing in clear terrain).
Needs 5 [4 (ejecting) + 1 (automatic ejection) + 2 (Head Internal Structure Damage) - 2 (landing in clear terrain)], rolls 8 : succeeds.
*** ???? (????) DESTROYED by ????! ***
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) takes 105 damage to CT.
SECTION DESTROYED,
Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) has taken 6 engine hits this phase.
Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 7.
Engine safety systems remain in place.
Critical hit on CT. Roll is (10+4) = 14; 3 locations.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.
CRITICAL HIT on Engine.

Pilot of Thunderbolt TDR-5S (Lordred) "Ellis Ngilu" is already dead, so no damage is dealt!
Location has no more hittable critical slots.

The engine safeties kicked in. Sadly. I love it when it doesn't, but considering I had him surrounded by 3 mechs, if it did stackpole I would have lost a lot.

[Alienized]

my TBT has 2 machine guns mainly to help the 2 srm4 i have in there. once you cracked an enemy ech even 2 mg can help alot (especially when the srm-holding arm gets blown away....). combined with 2 ER large lasers the 2 mg can do alot of damage to parts that have already been opened.
funny note aside: i once ran past a heavily damaged stalker, continued to fire the mg's, blowing both side torsos away srms were destroyed, lasers not usable due to overheat risk.
so if you cant put anything else onto a loadout, 2 MG are still nice to have for such things

[Zordicron]

Not good on a summoner. You want stuff you can fire and twist/move around your target because the summoner has very nice tank ability if you stay mobile and dont facetank.

Summoner is also a tricky one to get a solid loadout on, because it is agile and good at brawling, but can't run heavy brawl weapons like UAC20's because of pod space. I made the one into a Streak boat, which is lulz. On the one hand, I have matches with 150 Dmg because the situation unfolded where my team had to face their assault squad right off the bat and I had to step up as brawl/tank(because:summoner) to keep the other less brawly heavy and mediums on my team from becoming fodder. On the other hand, I have had 900 dmg+ games with 4 or 5 kills because enemy lights and mediums had a death wish, and frankly, with the dmg output, even stuff like Stalkers get melted down. It's funny with streaks that way, mechs that have solid hitbox for other stuff(as in, spread dmg) like Stalkers, well, it sort of works in Streaks favor, because at close range the random target mechanic they have can be over-ridden to a point because the missiles all splat into torsos anyway(firing top-down onto a stalker for example, those legs are tucked underneath)

the other loadout I have had success with consistently, very consistently, is 2x UAC5 in torsos, 4 ERML. My K/D in the prme with this is over 5:1. On hot maps, you can withold ML fire more, and still have solid output, adding the ERML scalpels when appropriate. HPG and the like, while everyone can ramp up dmg because of the heat dissipation, you can match it easily. Hence the consistence on all the maps. One trick to remember is it is better by far to forgoe the ERML and remain mostly in cover(UAC5's are very high mount compared) when in a tight shootout. Use that double tap, jams be damned.

Anyway, more on topic, I find MG work out 10000% better on smaller fast mechs, in groups of at least 3. I have my HBK G loaded with triple, and ERLL in arms, and max engine, and it works well, Cicada 3C same, etc. Put something with solid range on, and then boat MG, and play long range support, and as enemy gets beat up, move in to vulture mode and go blow mech bits off. If you can master MG vulture mode on the Locust, you will completely decimate on more sturdy mechs. My favorite chassis/mech to run MG on is the Cicada 3C, ERPPC and quad MG with max engine. It makes for a fun match, hold back and support at first, and then when the inevitable brawl starts up mid/late match, full throttle vulture mode, with ERPPC shots when you can spare heat to add more dmg and expose mech bits for consumption. MMMM, tasty mech bits, seasoned to taste with MG peppering.

IMO, larger mechs have the tonnage for heavy weapons, and in general are better served by them mostly because of range and slow speed making MG harder to utilize effectively. Certain loadouts exempted of course, Like quad MG on Jager D(because it has 6 ballistic points so you can pair them with two bigger guns) etc. Otherwise, you are almost certainly better served by spending the one or two tons on DHS or armor or engine on assault mechs, or even mediums(and up) with only 2 ballistic points(or worse, one)


TL;DR- dont use MG on anything over 60 tons unless you can boat them a lot like Jager D, MG work best in groups of 3 or more on speedy mechs.

[Hawk819]

In my opinion, Machine Guns should not be allowed on certain `Mechs unless specified by the Technical Readout, i.e. 3005, etc. The Mad Cat and Thor are the exception to this. Due to the fact that each has a variant for Machine Guns along with Black Hawk. Inner Sphere `Mechs such as Heavies, Assaults and Mediums don't carry them.