145 replies to this topic

[Papertarget]

What I would love to see, is that each class will have a role. Give a valid reason for each mech class. So far, that seems to be what they are working on. The light can scout. The medium either supports the light with more firepower, or the heavy/assault with a skirmisher that protects the flank and rear. The heavy is more for support of the assault, or the main battler. The assault is just that. Point it in a direction and watch as what is in front of it burns. But if something comes from the side or rear, it will be toast without the other classes protecting it.

My worry is more what they will do when the clans show. I know that as soon as they do, everyone and their dog will be trying to get one. I would rather see a system where you don't get access to a Clan Mech, unless you first defeat one. Plus, if you DO get one, then you will have a much higher repair cost, or even not be able too unless you take out another clan mech, as there will not be parts available in any real quantities. (In the books, a Clan Mech was a status symbol, and a symbol of respect. If you got one, it was because you did the almost impossible, by defeating it in battle. Plus, if the mechs themselves are made up of tech that not only has been lost for centuries, but is so much farther advanced as to almost be new tech, it would make sense that anyone that has the skill to repair it should be able to write their own checks to fix them.) If clan tech is just so saturating the market, and comparable in cost to repair, then almost no-body will choose an IS mech.

[Project_Mercy]

MinionJoe, on 25 June 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

See what I did there?

Not really.

Light mechs have other options

If there are take 'n holds, they can get there faster.
They can scout
They can NARC/TAG/C3
They can quickly support areas, or go between multiple battle fields
They can flee

An assault has none of this. It has nothing but killing.

The argument here though isn't really to do with what role it is. It has to do with what's the point of tonnage of a mech.

It's just slightly confusing from the fact that light mechs can be fast at the expense of "firepower", but heavy mechs generally don't get much faster even at the expensive of a lot of firepower (Ex: Charger).

If PGI wants to man up, remove tonnage from the game, and balance it some other way, then I say go for it. But be extremely clear about what you're doing. Don't say "we're a Mechwarrior/Battletech Game" and then throw out the foundation of Battletech. It's deceptive.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 25 June 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Koenig]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

I think the devs are a bit dichotimous in this regard.

The intent right now is that the battles will be contructed such that it's not just a death match. So apparently they added a "base" into the death-match board, so if you take the enemy base you win. I believe the theory is you're supposed to leave some people on defense, and some on attack, so an all slow-boat army couldn't "win" efficently.

But then you get the issue of "I'm parking all 12 assaults/heavies at my base and AFKing waiting for the ADHD kids to charge me" ala all the take'n'hold battlegrounds in most modern MMOs.

So instead they thought they would put "roles" in, where you basically had a scout, sniper, defender, long-range support, striker, etc.

Which I believe is what they're toying with right now. But it puts the HBK and the AS7 in the same role. So they get around it by artificially buffing the HBK. It's just in the end I feel, from what I've seen, that the assaults and heavies generally get the bad end of the stick. Time will tell. As it is though, they're bordering on basically removing the concept of tonnage from the game. Maybe that's the right answer, but I feel it really cheapens the mechs, and just turns them into vanity items.

Uhg, that is kind of depressing. I always felt like BT rules were already pretty balanced (when you factor everything including tonage.) I really hope they don't mess up what has been a good recipe for decades.

[Solarisjock]

Also, the issue of the Atlas not being able to squash lights is not to much of an issue, most lights get hit with the AC-20 they will be royally hosed by it. especially the XL varients, side torso goes away, engine goes away, light mech go boom. it is not until you get to the upper end of the medium class that mechs start having enough armor to slugfest it with an assault for a few salvos.

EDIT, and if they do try to slug it out, they are in for bad times, they need to be mobile to make it work.

Edited by Solarisjock, 25 June 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Ducks Guts]

Battlecruiser, on 25 June 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Apologies now if my hot air blowing upset you. I'm a troll by heart and when I'm frustrated or upset I blow it out of proportion on purpose. when I'm raging I'm actually laughing inside, both at the absurdity of my actions and the reactions of others closing off and making judgements. But the real trick is getting serious people to laugh, something that's very hard to do with only words. I feel actions and facial expressions are a large part of conveying this brand of humor. With that said though, personal attacks are never cool. The object is to draw all the ridicule and judgements to yourself and make others feel better about themselves while laughing yourself, if you're making personal attacks that can be percieved as sincere, you're alienating audience members and pulling attention away from the main act. Unless of course you've pre-established yourself with a sharp tongue, and even then you have to do it in moderation. There's a reason why sharp tounged comedians rarely go more than 5-15 minutes

but look at me going on about **** I have no reasonable understanding about like some kind of charles darwin, Looking forward to meeting friends and enemies alike on the battlefield, both in this game and in hawken

I'll quote a n earlier text of mine..."Some days you want to be the nice guy, some days you DON'T!". I think we'll get along just fine. See you on the field.

[Papertarget]

Solarisjock, on 25 June 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

Also, the issue of the Atlas not being able to squash lights is not to much of an issue, most lights get hit with the AC-20 they will be royally hosed by it. especially the XL varients, side torso goes away, engine goes away, light mech go boom. it is not until you get to the upper end of the medium class that mechs start having enough armor to slugfest it with an assault for a few salvos.

EDIT, and if they do try to slug it out, they are in for bad times, they need to be mobile to make it work.

In terms of Armor from the TT, 1 ton of armor has 16 armor points. That means that if a light mech has 4 tons of armor, (somewhat on the heavy side for a light mech,) you have 64 points of armor to place all over the mech. The left and right torso's, the center torso, the arms/weapon pods, the legs, and the rear torso. The AC 20 causes 20 points of damage from a single hit. That is over one ton. If there is ANY light mech that has more then a ton of armor in a single location, it would be the Center Torso. However, it would be a ton and a quarter slab of armor that would be able to protect from a single blast. There is no light mech that is in the IS that can withstand more then one shot by an AC 20 on the same location. (By the way. In TT each weight class was limited to the amount/weight of armor they could carry, so you couldn't just make a light with 8 tons of armor and a single weapon.)

[Odanan]

Read in the Devs answers about the founder's mechs.

You will start with mechs of the lowest tier and make your way (grinding) to the best ones. That makes sense: the Trebuchet is a mech at least a tier lower than the Catapult.

Just to be clear, you won't start with an Atlas (unless you are a Founder).

[Sierra19]

Plus too, if the light mech is getting an AC20, they are probably also getting an SRM6 and a couple of four medium lasers too. So yes, if the Atlas runs off by itself, it will most likely be swarmed and die, BUT that will still take a while, AND the opposing team will have to commit more resources to that task. Hopefully YOUR team isn't full of nitwits, and will seize the opportunity to support the Atlas, kill other mechs,or cap the base. The Atlas should be able to take quite a bit of punishment before going down, and damage a mech or two while at it. THAT is the strength of the Assault class. Massive firepower, coupled with massive armor, gives you staying power in a battle.

Odanan, on 25 June 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Read in the Devs answers about the founder's mechs.

You will start with mechs of the lowest tier and make your way (grinding) to the best ones. That makes sense: the Trebuchet is a mech at least a tier lower than the Catapult.

Just to be clear, you won't start with an Atlas (unless you are a Founder).

Where'd you read that at?

[Noth]

Odanan, on 25 June 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Read in the Devs answers about the founder's mechs.

You will start with mechs of the lowest tier and make your way (grinding) to the best ones. That makes sense: the Trebuchet is a mech at least a tier lower than the Catapult.

Just to be clear, you won't start with an Atlas (unless you are a Founder).

The only teirs that exist are weight classes and those don't mean that higher is better. What you grind for is variants of the mech.

[Freakiie]

Imo an Atlas should definitely not be able to roflstomp everything. If a light gets behind him the Atlas should be royally screwed. The moment he can just easily turn fast enough to catch the light is the moment something is incredibly wrong with this game.

Sure when the light is in front off him and he manages to hit it the light should be screwed, but if he doesn't and the light gets behind him he should be the one that's screwed. Otherwise what's the point of using a faster mech? We'd just all end up in assaults again, which was exactly the point the devs tried to avoid.

Take the Atlas on, on his terms? You're not gonna win it. You manage to make use of your mobility and sneak up on the Atlas? No way that he should be capable of catching up with you just like that and blasting an AC20 in your face.

Edited by Freakiie, 25 June 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Januph]

Think I'll play with a heavily moded Jenner, if I'm able to.
Hopefully destructable environment, burn trees with my flamer..

[trycksh0t]

As to what 'Mechs will be available as the free starter, everything is speculation at this point (to my knowledge) because that hasn't been revealed. However, Russ did give us an idea of what they're shooting for as far as available 'Mechs come Open Beta in the Developer Update.
http://mwomercs.com/...veloper-update/

Specifically:

Russ Bullock, on 15 June 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Hey MechWarrior fans,
*snip*

A note of clarification on the BattleMech’s – We have a system for announcing the Mech’s to the community on the web site but one should not assume this means that all of those Mech’s are currently present in the beta or that they are all available come Open Beta. We essentially add them into the game one at a time in very near the same way they are announced on the web site. Our expectation is that there will be 10 unique model types along with all their variants making for a total of around 40 different chassis come Open Beta. From that point forward they will continue to be added at a very regular pace.

*more snip*
Russ Bullock
President
Piranha Games Inc.

'Mech being announced != 'Mech being available immediately during open beta.

[light487]

Obviously as a founder I will immediately have access to a Light, Medium, Heavy and Assault mech to play from the get-go.... but that certainly doesn't mean I will only play with those 4 mechs. I will be certainly getting other mechs AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. In WoT I have about 20 tanks. My day in WoT basically consists of me playing one battle each, with each of the tanks... that's what I expect will happen with MWO for me also.

[Glythe]

As to the OP what we know:

The devs want anyone to be able to hop into the game and buy whatever class mech they want (note this is NOT the same thing as the chassis they want). It is unlikely they will give you enough CB to get into the most expensive mechs when you start as there is no incentive to grind higher up the tree.


Now then back to the hunchback/atlas debate.

Want to know how to kill a hunchback 100% of the time? Hug the wall. Maps in games like this have boundaries and the last time I looked it seemed to me that the hunchback doesn't have jump jets. That means he can't get above you.... and because you are wall hugging he can't get behind you. Note this assumes you are alone.

Let's also not forget that the Atlas can use command modules like UAV, satelitte sweep, and danger close (which is a flat proximity detection system).

Is it cheap? No it's just playing smart.

[light487]

Freakiie, on 25 June 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Imo an Atlas should definitely not be able to roflstomp everything. If a light gets behind him the Atlas should be royally screwed. The moment he can just easily turn fast enough to catch the light is the moment something is incredibly wrong with this game.

Sure when the light is in front off him and he manages to hit it the light should be screwed, but if he doesn't and the light gets behind him he should be the one that's screwed. Otherwise what's the point of using a faster mech? We'd just all end up in assaults again, which was exactly the point the devs tried to avoid.

Take the Atlas on, on his terms? You're not gonna win it. You manage to make use of your mobility and sneak up on the Atlas? No way that he should be capable of catching up with you just like that and blasting an AC20 in your face.

Well.. you'd certainly get the jump on the Atlas.. but you're not going to destroy the Atlas in a single shot.. this isn't CoD or AD&D with backstabs that do 6 times damage.. there are critical points on the back torso that means you'd be able hurt him more with the same amount of damage being inflicted.... of course that Atlas pilot may have configured his mech to have more armor on the back for just this reason.

Yes, you'd have the INITIAL advantage.. but that wouldn't exclude the Atlas, if the pilot was good, from being able to get out of that bad situation alive and turn it around. If the Light was stupid enough to take it on one-on-one, even starting from the back.. then they are just stupid. If the Light mech pilot is a veteran and can pilot the mech well enough to stay behind the Assault mech.. fine.. but there are so many variables at play..

[Citkat]

David PeachHill, on 24 June 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

Okedokey,
What mechs do you start with, people on here are saying you can start with an atlas from the word go.... isnt that a bit stupid? whats the point of earning XP?, you should start in the smallest crummiest mech and work up, earning c-bills and XP to pilot the bigger mechs. If you can use EVERYTHING from the start its just going to be an assault jamboree dancing in the twilight hours.

Please dont say everyone will start with assults and that in every match you can use them, because thats just going to blow bigtime.

I'm going to assume you don't gain "EXP" but you gain cash or credits to buy and upgrade your mechs. I do prefer the "if you can buy it you can use it" idea

[Noth]

Citkat, on 25 June 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

I'm going to assume you don't gain "EXP" but you gain cash or credits to buy and upgrade your mechs. I do prefer the "if you can buy it you can use it" idea

You gain xp. Two types of xp I believe. One for your pilot and one for the mech.

Edited by Noth, 25 June 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Reoh]

The problem with 1 v 1 comparisons, is this is a 12 v 12 game.

You don't shake hands, line up in the middle and go at it in turns. Anybody in a lower tonnage mech trying to go toe2toe or gets pinned down infront / caught out of place with an Atlas is in for a painful surprise. But a lighter mech can slip behind its larger cousins whether by stealth (LOS \ targeting block) or while its busy with something else will also be effective. All the more so if its engaging a distracted pilot, because they're adding their dps ontop of someone else against a target who might not notice you're there. Factor targeting for long rage missile boats and thats another merit to the group philosophy.

It's a team game, how many times have you played a 1v1 battle in a team game where someone else didn't join in for one side or the other? It'll happen, but don't expect it to be the norm.

[GHQCommander]

I agree and disagree.

We should be picking mechs to suit our roles so the only way there will be loads of Atlas to begin with. Is if hardly anyone goes Scout.

We'll be able to switch between mechs and roles per hour. This whole discussion as if it will become a battle of Atlas v Atlas for days is flawed. Give it 2-3 hours and the community will already know the diversity required. If I see too many Commander and Atlas during the first hour I will get into my Scout straight away.

I also level up XP on 4 mechs at once.

[Multitallented]

Ya I don't think the game will have too much of a problem retaining new players. It's an awesome game, especially if they are able to use assault mechs early. They might lose a lot because they don't know how to play, but they will have fun blowing up whatever they can hit. Sure they'll learn eventually, but I don't think they'll quit early.