145 replies to this topic

[Name48928]

Koenig, on 25 June 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Just prefer rational discussion over insanity. I feel like I'm visiting the flat earth society forums here.

I prefer rational insanity to discussion.

Honestly though, the devs sound like their doing their best to balance ALL the classes. As such, we can't expect an Atlas to just walk all over everything. Especially since melee combat probably won't be in at launch.

[Solarisjock]

Another issue with the given scenario is that the large majority of the atlases close in weapons are in the torso's, really limiting its fire arc, if the AC-20 was arm mounted i would give it 100% chance against the HBK, exluding flukes like ammo crits or head caps

[Noth]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I'm sorry, but the dev videos are basically useless in regards to balance. You have no idea what's going on with those pilots. It's just as likely the guy on the other side is told to not kill the OP, or the other person is also at the demo learning the controls. Combined with the fact that everytime someone analyzes a video too closely, the devs come in and say "oh, that's not here anymore" or what have you.


If you put a duel between a 4/6 Mech with an extra SL vs a 3/5 mech with an extra LRM-20, 2 MLs, SRM-6, and a crap ton more armor and some extra HS, and they're going to go 50/50 given equal pilots? Your system is broken, becuase you're artificially buffing the first guy's penalty (low armor, less weapons) , while not buffing the 2nd guy's penalty (buffing his speed).

And if you do homogenize everyone's penalties, then mechs primarily turn into vanity items.

I'm not the one that said 50/50. I gave no ratio. What I gave is a statemnt that just because it a bigger mech, does not mean it's better. So far from all the videos I've seen different mechs have different turning speeds both torso and leg. You can have can have differences that give streangth and weakness without having it to the point that one just stomps the other without hope. If the atlus turns slow enough that it can keep up with the Hunch, it still retains it's advantage of more armor, more weapons, the atlus just needs to adjust to the speed of the Hunch. IF the hunch did not have any advantages over teh atlus, it would be pointless in it's role as it fills the same close combat brawler role.

[Koenig]

MinionJoe, on 25 June 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

I prefer rational insanity to discussion.

Honestly though, the devs sound like their doing their best to balance ALL the classes. As such, we can't expect an Atlas to just walk all over everything. Especially since melee combat probably won't be in at launch.

Well in this thread, we have role discussions, the insanity is balanced among the posts.

Anyways, I just hope they balance them in the right way. I expect to see 50/50 games as team tonnage gets closer together (most other things being generally equal.)

Joe, not to derail but I'm genuinely curious, why haven't you bought founders yet?

[Smooth]

Who knows, maybe there will be a maximum drop weight for your company of battlemechs and you'll be forced to decide, 12 of the 50 tonners or 6 of the 100 tonners or some combination like that. I just don't think the devs are going to let 12 lights take on 12 assaults. I don't care how fast they are, they'll lose.

I bet it's going to be commandos for everyone, people who don't pay for in game c-bills will have to save up and make decisions, buy a Raven or a Jenner and have 2 lights or save a couple million c-bills more and move to the medium class.

Or the bigger mechs don't open up until you hit a certain XP level.......except for the founders:)

Edited by Smooth, 25 June 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Project_Mercy]

Noth, on 25 June 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

I'm not the one that said 50/50. I gave no ratio. What I gave is a statemnt that just because it a bigger mech, does not mean it's better. So far from all the videos I've seen different mechs have different turning speeds both torso and leg. You can have can have differences that give streangth and weakness without having it to the point that one just stomps the other without hope. If the atlus turns slow enough that it can keep up with the Hunch, it still retains it's advantage of more armor, more weapons, the atlus just needs to adjust to the speed of the Hunch. IF the hunch did not have any advantages over teh atlus, it would be pointless in it's role as it fills the same close combat brawler role.

I didn't say what the bonus/penalties were. I just said they exist. Torso twisting speed can be equated as a bonus to mediums.

The point is, if bonuses are given to lighter mechs to make them fair, you will not see people using heavier mechs. If the atlas' torso twist is frustratingly slow, people just won't use it.

I played Battletech MUXs for quite a long time. The DCMS company I was in for 3027/3028 was notorious for using lights and Mediums. We used them for various reasons, but primarily because our engagement policy was to attempt to gather what we could, then get out instead of holding long-term engagements. We used our speed. I got stuck in a Swayback for a while. It sucked. I was in it though because it was cheaper and easier to deal. When our group got stuck in, we fled. Obviously, I couldn't flee, so I was generally left to fend for myself. It sucked. I learned to deal. That's what made the system work.

If PGI wants to put meta-game bonuses to the lighter-ton mechs servering assault/heavy roles, that makes a lot of sense. If you start putting in tonnage-bonuses to a role-based system (So, in this case, speeding up torso twists for a slow knife-fighter), you will break the game for the worse. It's like adding "Nuke" to rock/paper/scissors. Nobody going to go with anything but Nuke. And if it's bad now, wait till clan tech becomes available. The delta between speeds and firepower just grows larger. These bonuses are just going to compound.

Smooth, on 25 June 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Who knows, maybe there will be a maximum drop weight for your company of battlemechs and you'll be forced to decide, 12 of the 50 tonners or 6 of the 100 tonners or some combination like that. I just don't think the devs are going to let 12 lights take on 12 assaults. I don't care how fast they are, they'll lose.

Devs have gone on record as saying there will be no tonnage or BV restrictions in the current game modes.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 25 June 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Chunkymonkey]

I think you get money and if you buy a light, you can customize.

[Koenig]

Noth, on 25 June 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

I'm not the one that said 50/50. I gave no ratio. What I gave is a statemnt that just because it a bigger mech, does not mean it's better. So far from all the videos I've seen different mechs have different turning speeds both torso and leg. You can have can have differences that give streangth and weakness without having it to the point that one just stomps the other without hope. If the atlus turns slow enough that it can keep up with the Hunch, it still retains it's advantage of more armor, more weapons, the atlus just needs to adjust to the speed of the Hunch. IF the hunch did not have any advantages over teh atlus, it would be pointless in it's role as it fills the same close combat brawler role.

The atlas and hunch do not in any way share the same role.

[Odweaver]

Assaults that get flanked deserve to suffer for it.
Assault players should coordinate with their team to try and avoid situations where they would be flanked.
The reason the hunchies, jenners, and other mechs are causing havoc against the atlas's is the teams are not well coordinated yet.
In terms of team compositions it is best to have a mixed deployment because not every battle is going to be a straight up slugfest and overspecialization just breeds weakness.


Relevant to the flanking discussion

Edited by Odweaver, 25 June 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[Koenig]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Devs have gone on record as saying there will be no tonnage or BV restrictions in the current game modes.

Wow, now that actually surprises me. Just as I would expect the atlas to easily quash a hunch, I would generally expect to see equal tonnage on either side.

If it's 12 v 12, surely 12 assults run up the highest hill at the start of the game is the winning strat?

[Noth]

Koenig, on 25 June 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

The atlas and hunch do not in any way share the same role.

In this game both are close combat bralwers. The Atlus has a long range option in missiles along with more other weapons and much more armor. If the Hunch did not have some sort of advantage it would be pointless in it's role. People brought up the same issue with the trebuchet and Catapult. Both are fire support mechs, but the catapult hold more armor, lasers and missiles, yet the trebuchet has the advantage of speed giving it an advanatge and in turn a different playstyle while filling the same role. The same should be true between the Hunch and the atlus. A faster mech should be able to exploit the lack of speed of a bigger mech. this doesn't mean that the bigger mech suddenly doesn't have advanatges, it simply means that the smaller faster mech has a tool to not be completely dominated just because it's out gunned.

Edited by Noth, 25 June 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 25 June 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

I know I have played you before then, and I think I even killed you once

Apologies now if my hot air blowing upset you. I'm a troll by heart and when I'm frustrated or upset- or even bored I blow everything out of proportion on purpose. when I'm raging I'm actually laughing inside, both at the absurdity of my actions and the reactions of others closing off and making judgements. But the real trick is getting serious people to laugh, something that's very hard to do with only words. I feel actions and facial expressions are a large part of conveying this brand of humor. With that said though, personal attacks are never cool. The object is to draw all the ridicule and judgements to yourself and make others feel better about themselves while laughing yourself, if you're making personal attacks that can be percieved as sincere, you're alienating audience members and pulling attention away from the main act. Unless of course you've pre-established yourself with a sharp tongue, and even then you have to do it in moderation. There's a reason why sharp tounged comedians rarely go more than 5-15 minutes

but look at me going on about **** I have no reasonable understanding about like some kind of charles darwin, Looking forward to meeting friends and enemies alike on the battlefield, both in this game and in hawken

Edited by Battlecruiser, 25 June 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[bikerbass77]

David PeachHill, on 24 June 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

The problem is, this is going to be a F2P, were going to get people who dont know how to play, were going to have HUNDREDS of leroy jenkins in atlas`s running towards you unguided and unaware of how to play.

Mmmm... Salvage. Easy canon fodder. Their inexperience means easy upgrades for everyone else. After all, if they are too noob to watch the heat indicator...

[Odweaver]

Hans Davion, on 25 June 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

Mmmm... Salvage. Easy canon fodder. Their inexperience means easy upgrades for everyone else. After all, if they are too noob to watch the heat indicator...

Reason why I'm going Narc + 4 Flamer on the jenner.

[Koenig]

Noth, on 25 June 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

In this game both are close combat bralwers. The Atlus has a long range option in missiles along with more other weapons and much more armor. If the Hunch did not have some sort of advantage it would be pointless in it's role. People brought up the same issue with the trebuchet and Catapult. Both are fire support mechs, but the catapult hold more armor, lasers and missiles, yet the trebuchet has the advantage of speed giving it an advanatge and in turn a different playstyle while filling the same role. The same should be true between the Hunch and the atlus. A faster mech should be able to exploit the lack of speed of a bigger mech. this doesn't mean that the bigger mech suddenly doesn't have advanatges, it simply means that the smaller faster mech has a tool to not be completely dominated just because it's out gunned.

You could very well be right about MWO. This would make it a very different game than any other BT/MW I have ever played. I wish we could see some videos that show what you're talking about...

[Project_Mercy]

Koenig, on 25 June 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Wow, now that actually surprises me. Just as I would expect the atlas to easily quash a hunch, I would generally expect to see equal tonnage on either side.

If it's 12 v 12, surely 12 assults run up the highest hill at the start of the game is the winning strat?

I think the devs are a bit dichotimous in this regard.

The intent right now is that the battles will be contructed such that it's not just a death match. So apparently they added a "base" into the death-match board, so if you take the enemy base you win. I believe the theory is you're supposed to leave some people on defense, and some on attack, so an all slow-boat army couldn't "win" efficently.

But then you get the issue of "I'm parking all 12 assaults/heavies at my base and AFKing waiting for the ADHD kids to charge me" ala all the take'n'hold battlegrounds in most modern MMOs.

So instead they thought they would put "roles" in, where you basically had a scout, sniper, defender, long-range support, striker, etc.

Which I believe is what they're toying with right now. But it puts the HBK and the AS7 in the same role. So they get around it by artificially buffing the HBK. It's just in the end I feel, from what I've seen, that the assaults and heavies generally get the bad end of the stick. Time will tell. As it is though, they're bordering on basically removing the concept of tonnage from the game. Maybe that's the right answer, but I feel it really cheapens the mechs, and just turns them into vanity items.

[Ducks Guts]

I myself am partial to being the underdog in a fight. It makes the victory feel that much better. Bring on the big guys...

[Koenig]

Odweaver, on 25 June 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Relevant to the flanking discussion

So you CAN eject your pilot and run around fighting with infantry weapons. This is gonna be a great game!!!

[PANZERBUNNY]

Noth, on 25 June 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

In this game both are close combat bralwers. The Atlus has a long range option in missiles along with more other weapons and much more armor. If the Hunch did not have some sort of advantage it would be pointless in it's role. People brought up the same issue with the trebuchet and Catapult. Both are fire support mechs, but the catapult hold more armor, lasers and missiles, yet the trebuchet has the advantage of speed giving it an advanatge and in turn a different playstyle while filling the same role. The same should be true between the Hunch and the atlus. A faster mech should be able to exploit the lack of speed of a bigger mech. this doesn't mean that the bigger mech suddenly doesn't have advanatges, it simply means that the smaller faster mech has a tool to not be completely dominated just because it's out gunned.

Unless you gear your Atlas with extra LRM ammo, you really don't have much long lasting punch.

[Name48928]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

The point is, if heavier mechs are undefeatable, you will not see people using lighter mechs. If the atlas' firepower one-shots every smaller mech, it's the only thing people will use.

See what I did there?

(Edit: Koenig: Answered your question in PMs.)

Edited by MinionJoe, 25 June 2012 - 02:38 PM.