88 replies to this topic

[Elizander]

I don't think we need more weapons to further bury fast light and medium mechs into the ground.

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

3 srm2 have a higher RoF than a single SRM6, also you don't get all 3 destroyed with one crit. Conversely, more heat generated. Tradeoffs. It what makes them worth it.

If, for instance, I had the option of packing on my Mad Dog, 2x Prime Torsos, with 2 SRM6, or 2x Alpha Torsos, with 6 SRM2,, you have the choice, depending on your build needs, of higher RoF with the 2s, or lower heat with the 6s.

Yeah but the higher ROF is an issue in and of itself.

You already HAVE a buff to the SRM2...any more and its better than the SRM4 or 6...which is one of the annoying slopes PGI has slid down in the translation arena.

Theres no reason anyone should ever pick 3 SRM2s, over a single SRM6.

If they do...its because the SRM2 is abnormally buffed by PGI....in which case buffing it AGAIN...would be insanely stupid. If people are already choosing it over the extra tube version...its already better than it should be.

[KraftySOT]

Im kind of blown away at some of the misunderstandings of high level TT play here...heres a run down of concepts.

1. Front load your damage. You want to fire your big hole punchers first, and your crit causers last.
2. You want to get rid of your ammo as fast as possible
3. Medium lasers are the backbone of every single strategy
4. Speed is life
5. Armor is life insurance
6. If you dont have the heat capacity to fire all your weapons every turn, your BV is a lie
7. Munchkins be damned (those who min/max their BV to facerape you)
8. AC/2s are the bane of every VTOL and vehicle
9. Infantry in the open? NEVER
10. Buildings are neither cover, nor concealment. They are deathtraps.

Edited by KraftySOT, 12 October 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[FupDup]

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

*sigh*

No game on earth has more than 6 balanced weapons. Paul is not the problem. Nice scapegoat.

Also in any campaign ive played with a panther (short of the 3025 megamek campaign) ive ripped out my SRM4 and back armor, in favor of 2xSRM2s. Mo' crits yo.

I'm pretty sure that 2 SRM2 didn't get any more crit chances than 1 SRM4. Crits are handled on a per-missile basis for SRMs, not per launcher. 4 missiles = 4 crit chances, no matter how you slice it up.

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Its also not a panther specific problem. There are almost no light mechs im familiar with, with many heat sinks. Heat is an issue. SRMs cause less hit and more crit prone than medium lasers. Theyre not "better" persay than a medium laser. An SRM2 is pretty meh, but when used for what its intended for, its great. The SRM6 is generally more poweful than the medium laser...but that is situational as well.

It doesnt matter what mech youre talking about...the advantage to SRMs is the spread damage and that each missile can cause a crit. Its the same here. It spreads damage. Its THE weapon (other than MGs) to shoot at mechs down to internals.

Even your SRM2 locust can do this now. Its just basically useless most of the time.

And you can get those crits with any other SRM tube sizes (or, in the case of the 2-tuber, you can use 2 ML for the same crit rates). You can also often build the mech design around the specific weapons in question to address heat, depending on the exact build. SSW is a wonderful program...

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

And yes, while you can load infernos into an SRM6, you generally dont. The SRM2s on many mechs after infernos, especially heavy mechs with SRM2s (theres alot actually) are generally intended to be firing specialized ammo out of them. They arent there because theyre effective, theyre there because they have a niche role.

Using specialty ammo (especially Infernos) on the SRM2 isn't even a good idea, because you'll never use up that ammo before your mech gets its armored stripped...you will almost certainly explode and die gloriously from that ammo exploding. You want to eat up ammo as quickly as possible (i.e. bigger launchers).

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

And SSRM2s are not the work house of the IS...wtf are you talking about.

THE MEDIUM. LASER.

Its like youve never played the TT

Do you actually believe that I was trying to imply the Streak 2? Literally no one has ever called the SSRM2 the workhorse, and I didn't either. It was a pretty clear reference to the ML.

Edited by FupDup, 12 October 2014 - 09:34 AM.

[Koniving]

Dracol, on 12 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Closed beta footage from 2 years ago, nice.
Compared to closed beta, ya streaks are better now since the whirl missile issue was fixed. But compared to 8 months(?) ago, they're not as effective.

8 months ago, SRMs didn't work, and Streaks had 2.5 damage per missile (5 damage).

Now SRMs work AND do bonus damage (12.9 damage, 2.15 damage per missile)
Streaks just do the supposed-to 2 damage per missile (4 damage total).

While irrelevant, compared to tabletop, Streaks are still super effective. It's not even supposed to fire about 70% of the time due to circumstances where standard SRM homing 'could miss', the launcher won't let you fire at all. So you're lucky they do anything at all. Had I designed it, you'd be able to toggle whether or not you want them to try to fire and allow them to only fire on the computer's control when the server thinks that you might hit. Taking control completely away from you for much more canon-streaks.

<.<; You'll be surprised though.
Streaks are incredibly useful for DPS builds and anti-light tactics for larger units. I run them on my anti-assault Atlases along with some LPLs for that 'AC/31' punch.

Streaks are not useful for those who like to 'tap to fire' and twist away. Use SRMs for that.

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Youre slightly more likely to hit with 3 missiles with two 50% rolls, than you are with 25% rolls. Thats the reason for taking an SRM2x2 over an SRM4. When youre going lights on lights...the extra missile is useful. In pretty much all other circumstances its better to take the SRM with more tubes...since the waste is mitigated because youre in a larger mech.

The fact that 2xSRM6 will never hit with 12 missiles (and most likely be ~6) where as 6xSRM2 will probably hit with ~7. Isnt important as armor values climb.

And of course you use infernos in SRM2s...Infernos are devastating to infantry, which is the main target of an SRM2. Theyre also nice in a mixed lance where your light will most likely be sniping (that is to say running its max movement and ending in a bad arc, thus being the worst target choice)

Koniving, on 12 October 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

8 months ago, SRMs didn't work, and Streaks had 2.5 damage per missile (5 damage).

Now SRMs work AND do bonus damage (12.9 damage, 2.15 damage per missile)
Streaks just do the supposed-to 2 damage per missile (4 damage total).

While irrelevant, compared to tabletop, Streaks are still super effective. It's not even supposed to fire about 70% of the time due to circumstances where standard SRM homing 'could miss', the launcher won't let you fire at all. So you're lucky they do anything at all. Had I designed it, you'd be able to toggle whether or not you want them to try to fire and allow them to only fire on the computer's control when the server thinks that you might hit. Taking control completely away from you for much more canon-streaks.

<.<; You'll be surprised though.
Streaks are incredibly useful for DPS builds and anti-light tactics for larger units. I run them on my anti-assault Atlases along with some LPLs for that 'AC/31' punch.

Streaks are not useful for those who like to 'tap to fire' and twist away. Use SRMs for that.

This.

But hey lets buff em more, and then put ECM on every mech too...and hey lets have 50% more cbills for everybody! Weeeee

[Lexx]

Koniving, on 12 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Also keep in mind that you in a 60 ton Battlemech with a standard 300 engine, endo steel and maximum armor can equip 23 tons of stuff. Example.
In an XL engine of the same size, you can equip 41.5 tons of stuff. Example.

A 60 ton Omnimech has...26.03 tons to work with, using an XL engine. Example.

You can have 41.5 tons of stuff with the same size engine. He only gets 26. It actually balances out in favor of the IS with stuff you can equip versus stuff he can equip.
Your perceived advantage doesn't really exist...

You don't have max armor in that first Quickdraw, you only have about half armor. When you put it up to max armor it only has 18.43 tons for weapons with the standard 300

With the second Quickdraw you don't have any armor on it at all. If you max it's armor it gets 28 tons and then when you consider that the Mad dog has 2 heat sinks in the engine it ends up being the same.

[Dracol]

Spoiler

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Good thing we are talking about game balance then, and not your opinions, eh?
If you consider minimal damage, spread all over the extremities of the enemy mech "noob friendly" trade offs for the lock on, well, you and I have a differing view of noob friendly.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

amen to that. even with artemis, they spread poorly, and really, who in the heck is gonna double their weight per launcher?

Tighter spread, lower heat.

As for the SSRm2 my thought is to use a version of the arcing mechanic from C-ERPPC. For SSRM2s, have them hit a primary location (where aimed) and then the second missile could hit an adjacent location. (Instead of hitting the forehead and the big toe)

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Nope, just friendly counter ecm or BAP if multiple ecm mechs are not in proximity. Considering the prevalence of ECM in game, having to know about, pack and use a counter (which only works if you come across the ecm solo, and not in a pck), I consider it still pretty much more of a noob trap, than friendly.

I consider very few weapons "ezmode" in terms of results. LRMs may be spammed, but tend to be inefficient, and have very low accuracy %s, usually lowest in the game. Streaks may be "fire and forget" but are easily countered, and generally very ineffective at actually bringing down mechs,with their spread, even against Lights, now.

Yes any idiot can use them ineffectively, but I find the whole elitists "no skill, auto aim mode" in general to be kinda laughable, since to use any of those systems EFFECTIVELY, considering range limitations, hard counters, spread damage, etc, takes considerably more skill than using hitscan lasers.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

swaggering epeen about the viability and use of weapons is pretty laughable, too. But that's just me. I almost get it from a top comp, (though it's still pretty lame) but when other people start knocking a weapon, because they simply dislike the mechanic, meh, it's hard to take it seriously.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

still haven't seen any actual "pros" weigh in. But then, IDK any pro who would deign to use SSRMs or SRM2s, etc anyhow. They aren't "meta" afterall.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

no weapon should ever be "because that's all you can fit".

That train of thought, blows my mind. Especially since in those cases, you can only mount one, so you are reinforcing mounting a single bad weapon. Thats pointless. Small weapons, boated in large numbers, should still be effective. Simply not more effective than heavier weapons, as to not obsolete the bigger guns. A single SRM2, SSRM2, or LRM5, are for all intents and purposes useless. Good weapon balance should allow for them to have their niche though, used en masse.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Still pretty much everywhere, in every match I play, a little more hit and miss in solo. Add in Myst Lynx and Hellbringer soon, and it's only getting worse, not better.

Certainly, a LRM or such can be dominant when you win the MM lottery and get an acm lite enemy team. But otherwise, even on my barely played 3rd alt, I see an average of 3 ecm per team. Heck, one reason I expect them to avoid giving the IS an ECM heavy anytime soon, or the Clans an ECM assault is to avoid full stealth 12 mans, in CW.

You better believe in casual you'll see some 3 Spider/Raven, 3 CDC-3M, 3 Hellbringer and 3 D-DC drops for the lulz, once Wave II drops.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

3 srm2 have a higher RoF than a single SRM6, also you don't get all 3 destroyed with one crit. Conversely, more heat generated. Tradeoffs. It what makes them worth it.

If, for instance, I had the option of packing on my Mad Dog, 2x Prime Torsos, with 2 SRM6, or 2x Alpha Torsos, with 6 SRM2,, you have the choice, depending on your build needs, of higher RoF with the 2s, or lower heat with the 6s.

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

they upped the tube count? It's been a while since my TT days, but the old rules were SRM2 only.

Looking through your posts in this thread prior to the one below.....

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

did you miss the part where I mentioned my rarely played alt account? It has like..20 matches. Most pre Elo. Pretty sure, it's a "new player" experience.

Decaf buddy, lol.

Nope, didn't miss that part, cause you never brought it up.
May I suggest some fish oil to help your memory?

[Dracol]

Koniving, on 12 October 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

8 months ago, SRMs didn't work, and Streaks had 2.5 damage per missile (5 damage).
-snip-

All valid points and all. I was referring to right before they moved to the target bones hit model for streaks. Thought it was 8 months ago, but wasn't very positive about it, hence the (?).

It was at that point in time that SSRMs were the most effective if I recall correctly.

[Deathlike]

WTF is this thread?!?!

Here's something to honestly ponder.

There SHOULD be some benefit to the IS SSRM2 to be more useful than the Clan SSRM2 due to obvious inherent tonnage benefits. Using the current state of SRMs that have their damage increase in the trade for tonnage, a similar thing should apply to Streaks.

Just simply increase the damage of Streaks to AT LEAST 2.25 damage per missile. Remember that Clan SSRMs have an increase of range (Clan's 360m instead of IS's 270m, using their base stats). It could be argued that Steaks should have more damage, but that's a different debate.

Also, the other part of the suggestion is to increase the damage of SRMs per missile to AT LEAST 2.25... just like Streaks. It's been said before that the .15 damage increase from 2 is insignificant (at best, you do .9 damage more in total with SRM6s). 2.25 damage per missile would generate 1.5 pts more damage total over missiles doing 2 damage per missile. That's at least tangible damage.

While I believe SRMs probably should do 2.5 per missile, this is a stepping stone to improve the power vs tonnage discrepancy between IS vs Clans.

Edit: There is a reason why the Jenner-D has been considered Tier2... generally because going Streaks is randomly effective, but consistent (well, for the lasers anyways), and that going dual SRM4s does have a large damage bump, but is very limited tonnage-wise for DHS and incurs a heat increase... and can be inconsistent due to HSR/lag.

Whatever I guess.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 October 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Koniving]

Lexx, on 12 October 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

You don't have max armor in that first Quickdraw, you only have about half armor. When you put it up to max armor it only has 18.43 tons for weapons with the standard 300

With the second Quickdraw you don't have any armor on it at all. If you max it's armor it gets 28 tons and then when you consider that the Mad dog has 2 heat sinks in the engine it ends up being the same.

Evidently it didn't save or I hit "stock armor" instead of max. Fixed.

Dracol, on 12 October 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

All valid points and all. I was referring to right before they moved to the target bones hit model for streaks. Thought it was 8 months ago, but wasn't very positive about it, hence the (?).

It was at that point in time that SSRMs were the most effective if I recall correctly.

They did that twice.
The first time was back in 2012. Back then it was super effective just before it (as they first made it 100% hit and then like a hotpatch later put in the spread), but at the same time a "2" damage Streak was actually doing 25+ damage against certain targets, as was the case with all missiles.

The second time was sometime in 2013. This was for several reasons, one of which was firing at limbs that were destroyed.

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[Koniving]

Deathlike, on 12 October 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

WTF is this thread?!?!

Here's something to honestly ponder.

There SHOULD be some benefit to the IS SSRM2 to be more useful than the Clan SSRM2 due to obvious inherent tonnage benefits.

To this... Here's an idea. Instead of constantly playing with damage (or reload times), why not play with accuracy?
Why not make the Streak SRM-2 more likely to hit torso components, while Clan streak-SRM-2s are more likely to hit limbs?

(Though honestly that might make streaks less useful for the IS, as you want to get rid of Clan arms and legs).

Making the Clan streaks easier to destroy (different type of metal; lighter) would be another method instead of everything being 10 health as most weapons currently are.

On tabletop, Clan weapons generally have less health due to fewer slots. 1 slot? Destroyed on one crit. 2 slots? Disabled on one crit. (So Clan ER PPCs are easier to disable than IS ones when you hit them, but you're more likely to land a crit on an IS PPC).

On the ACs, it takes fewer crits to disable or destroy a Clan UAC or than an IS AC. The Clan LBX (thusly MWO's Clan ACs too) were slightly more difficult, but still easier than IS ACs.

So there's a pretty canon way of dealing with it. Besides the equipment has too much health.

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[UrsusMorologus]

Another option is auto-target area with highest component-to-armor ratio, IE banging away at unarmored leg or something

[Thorqemada]

With the Tube count of Clan SSRM and making them more hit limbs you can leg each Mech in pretty much no time - keep in mind that the IS can boat up to 12 Tubes of Streaks vs up to 36 Tubes for the Clans with ~30% more range.

PS: Equipment + Structure has not enough health - destroyed Heatsinks and damaged Weapons (more heat, slower reload/cooldown, reuced range i.e.) have pretty much no gameplay importance.

Edited by Thorqemada, 12 October 2014 - 10:31 AM.

[Motörhead]

I miss my streak oxide, it was a great money maker and I'd use it with premium time with much happines, but yeah, atm they are useless, clan can Mount ssrm4 or 6 to pack more and compensate, but on IS 2.5 DMG was perfectly fine.

2 DMG would be fine, but on missile weapon, auto-locked, range>>>speed, close stats as clan SSRM2 but with more weight would be enough already.

Range 320m, missile speed -15m/s, 2 damage, same weight...deal

Edited by fx8320, 12 October 2014 - 10:44 AM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

they upped the tube count? It's been a while since my TT days, but the old rules were SRM2 only.

Been any sized SRM and infantry SRMs except BA since 2001.

Battletech Master Rules: Revised Edition said:

Any unit with a standard SRM launcher, and SRM-equipped infantry (but not battle armor), can use infernos.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 12 October 2014 - 10:37 AM.

[Bront]

FupDup, on 12 October 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

The regular SRM2 is also underpowered. It has the same tonnage as a Medium Laser (1 ton), but has the additional requirement of ammo, and it doesn't have 2x max range. Given these traits, the SRM2 rightfully should be at least somewhat better for brawling than the ML.

It runs cooler though.

ML is 1.25 DPS, 1.0 HPS
SRM2 is 2.15 DPS, 1.0 HPS.

Ok, I stand corrected, it doesn't run cooler, it does more DPS.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 12 October 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

To this... Here's an idea. Instead of constantly playing with damage (or reload times), why not play with accuracy?
Why not make the Streak SRM-2 more likely to hit torso components, while Clan streak-SRM-2s are more likely to hit limbs?

(Though honestly that might make streaks less useful for the IS, as you want to get rid of Clan arms and legs).

I'm not adverse to the different idea, but considering most deaths of a Clan mech often times have at least 1 side torso lost, giving "better streaks" to combat is interesting and would need extended testing to determine how much it would lower Clan Mech TTK. Most Clan Mechs would disable each others weapons with streaks, given the general propensity to have arm weapons controlling the majority of their firepower..

Remember that the IS XL engines does make them fragile... so for any stray hit to hit the side torso of any IS Light would make IS Streaks immediately more deadly.

Edit:
My point was that the implications of the changed "ruleset" for the Streak randomness can be kinda dangerous for balance implications.

Quote

Making the Clan streaks easier to destroy (different type of metal; lighter) would be another method instead of everything being 10 health as most weapons currently are.

On tabletop, Clan weapons generally have less health due to fewer slots. 1 slot? Destroyed on one crit. 2 slots? Disabled on one crit. (So Clan ER PPCs are easier to disable than IS ones when you hit them, but you're more likely to land a crit on an IS PPC).

On the ACs, it takes fewer crits to disable or destroy a Clan UAC or than an IS AC. The Clan LBX (thusly MWO's Clan ACs too) were slightly more difficult, but still easier than IS ACs.

So there's a pretty canon way of dealing with it. Besides the equipment has too much health.

While I'm not too interested at the moment at addressing that... but it's probably an interesting thing to look into considering how bland the system is when initially implemented and little to no experimentation occurred here. Only weapons and equipment that have had certain consequences have notable values (AC20, Gauss, ECM)... and everything else is "relatively the same". That's sad on the effort spent to implement the health system...

Edited by Deathlike, 12 October 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Dracol]

fx8320, on 12 October 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

I miss my streak oxide, it was a great money maker and I'd use it with premium time with much happines, but yeah, atm they are useless, clan can Mount ssrm4 or 6 to pack more and compensate, but on IS 2.5 DMG was perfectly fine.

2 DMG would be fine, but on missile weapon, auto-locked, range>>>speed, close stats as clan SSRM2 but with more weight would be enough already.

Range 320m, missile speed -15m/s, 2 damage, same weight...deal

Just curious, what change to SSRMs made your oxiode not perform well? Or, was it the introduction of clan mechs, which brought more lasers and streaks to the field there by making the fast light easier to take down?

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 12 October 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

<.<; You'll be surprised though.
Streaks are incredibly useful for DPS builds and anti-light tactics for larger units. I run them on my anti-assault Atlases along with some LPLs for that 'AC/31' punch.

Basically, this.

IDK which Elo bracket I sit in. Or if it even matters since it seems to try to simply average group Elos. But more often than not, in the bracket I do play in, Lights wait until you are engaged with bigger threats, then move in and nip at your heels. Aka, play smart. I find if I pack a large number of SSRMs, that dissuades a lot from even trying in the first place, and it allows me to easily fire and forget SSRMs on the persistent ones, while using my direct fire weapons on my main threat.

Dracol, on 12 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Spoiler

Looking through your posts in this thread prior to the one below.....

Nope, didn't miss that part, cause you never brought it up.
May I suggest some fish oil to help your memory?

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Still pretty much everywhere, in every match I play, a little more hit and miss in solo. Add in Myst Lynx and Hellbringer soon, and it's only getting worse, not better.



Certainly, a LRM or such can be dominant when you win the MM lottery and get an acm lite enemy team. But otherwise, even on my barely played 3rd alt, I see an average of 3 ecm per team. Heck, one reason I expect them to avoid giving the IS an ECM heavy anytime soon, or the Clans an ECM assault is to avoid full stealth 12 mans, in CW.



You better believe in casual you'll see some 3 Spider/Raven, 3 CDC-3M, 3 Hellbringer and 3 D-DC drops for the lulz, once Wave II drops.

I hear vitamin E is good for eyesight.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 October 2014 - 04:19 PM.