87 replies to this topic

[Xtrekker]

kitteh, on 13 October 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

My humble opinion is that if you want to play or introduce this game to a new player/friend, take the trouble to create a new account and join him in a more balanced game elo wise.

Which gets you to about the 10th match, when all of a sudden the opposition changes dramatically, team tags start appearing everywhere and the teams carry their limit of DWFs. You find yourself in an odd mix of noobish guppies and seasoned sharks full of smack talk.

Or....perhaps you meant as a permanent wing. Yeah, that's probably a good idea.

Edited by Xtrekker, 13 October 2014 - 09:10 PM.

[Training Instructor]

LauLiao, on 13 October 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Anything larger than the group he's dropping in I assume.



No, I play in large groups because we have a lot of really cool guys in our unit who are a lot of fun to drop with.

You've got Liao in your username, so I doubt there's a lot of really cool guys in your unit.

[Training Instructor]

Am I the only one who loves getting a couple of people from my unit together and getting stomped in the group queue?

Nothing bring more satisfaction at the end of the match then to have zero kills, 2 assists, and 130 damage.


Sarcasm aside, I've been playing for almost two years now, and until CW is fully implemented, finding motivation or rewards from solo or group matches is pretty difficult.

[-Natural Selection-]

Not going one step further to ensure your group is more coordinated than the other is a player issue, not the game.

If you want to win more, take actions to improve your odds. As someone once said, "once you expect to win, you are no longer casual".

[Felio]

Triordinant, on 13 October 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

For the Nth time:

Here's the bottom line: almost no one wants to play against the big organized well-trained Units, but PGI needs them for Community Warfare. In order to save the game (players were leaving in droves after being repeatedly curbstomped by big organized Units), PGI created a solo-only queue to keep the big Units from preying on the casual PUGs that made up the vast majority of players. However, they also wanted to retain the big organized Units who were not playing because they had to wait forever to find a match for their 12-man teams or were being limited to 4-man teams. Someone had to get the shaft and I suspect rather than sticking it to the solo players (who are by far the most numerous) or the big organized Units (who are the biggest spenders of real money per player), they decided the short end of the stick would go to the small casual groups (who are neither the most numerous nor the biggest spenders).

The only solution I can see on the horizon is PGI rolling out Community Warfare as soon as possible. Hopefully, most of those big, organized and well-trained Units no one wants to play with will all migrate there during peak hours (which is when CW is planned to be held), leaving the group queue mostly to small, casual groups.

I agree with your theory. But I also think solo players get bored if they aren't playing with friends once in a while. I think we need small groups, too. After a while, don't you start to say, "Yeah I'm progressing, but who am I sharing it with?"

However, I disagree with the statement that we need big, organized, well-trained units for Community Warfare. They designed it to only include them and no one else, but they didn't have to, not by a long shot, and they did back off from it after feedback.

They could have CW running 24/7 with solo and group queues and just keep a running tally of points to determine territory. They just had to make it complicated and exclusive for some reason.

Squally160, on 13 October 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Youre whole statement is basically "I dont want to play against them, so who cares how long their wait times are"

No, I do not want to play agaisnt a bunch of unorganized players. But I still want to PLAY.

Waiting in q* (typoooo) for a half hour isnt playing.

Protip: Back in the day, it was 12 man or nothing in the group q, guess how many groups were playing then? barely any. You could wait all night and not get a match.

Now you want to push us back into that because you feel like you need special treatment?

I wouldn't call it special treatment, but aside from that, that's actually a pretty fair assessment of what I am saying, yes.

[Revis Volek]

Felio, on 13 October 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

...With no release valve. If they are so hardcore, they can arrange private matches. Or they can form smaller groups and sync drop and try their luck.

I am tired of being meat for the grinder; my enjoyment sacrificed for the enjoyment of others. This is not sustainable.

This specific reason is why I have not purchased a Clan Wave II package. I have no faith the game will be made enjoyable to play with friends again.

We often do form small groups, and even when we do this i hear whining and crying about us. If we go Solo and get in the same game i get flames and crying about them reporting us for Sync Dropping. Happened the other night....We also use PVT lobbies very often for Internal Practices, ToP's, Duels, Tactic Practice, etc. So we are already doing all of these things you seem to think were put in place for us and ONLY us LARGE groups. But please continue to patronize us and tell us stuff we already do to make the game enjoyable for us and you.

But the same goes to you....if you want a fair game with your friends then make a PVT MATCH! If you want a fair and even team and the coordination that they have then get on one of the MANY, MANY free comms offered here and join up. We use Strana Mechty and we NEVER turn away lone wolves looking to group up or even small groups wanting to tag along and do 12's. You are acting like a child who lost his toy. There is no reason Large groups should suffer so small groups can thrive and vice versa. We all have to deal with this small player base....wait until CW start and all the 12's just up and leave the Group queues to go do that....i wonder how quickly the game will go then. Or how much you all will miss us 12's keeping those queues populated.

Felio, on 13 October 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Trying harder will never match that level of coordination. And if we all got into large groups, none of us would be able to play.

This way, everyone would be able to. A small group with a big group, a medium group with a medium group. Even groups of 12, so long as there is at least one other group of 12 playing.

So what's the real reason you're against it?

If we all got into large groups no one would play? You obviously have NO IDEA how the MM works....games would be going faster then people could get into mechs if EVERYONE was in a 12, stuck to 4x3 and choose whatever mode they wanted. That is the PERFECT storm for the MM....please review how the MM works.

Felio, on 14 October 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

I wouldn't call it special treatment, but aside from that, that's actually a pretty fair assessment of what I am saying, yes.

What i take from all of your complaining is you think PGi should make this game and cater to you and your friends ONLY while ignoring the Whales, f2p guys and everyone else in between? Seems logical and something we should all follow....right into oncoming traffic.

Felio, on 14 October 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

However, I disagree with the statement that we need big, organized, well-trained units for Community Warfare. They designed it to only include them and no one else, but they didn't have to, not by a long shot, and they did back off from it after feedback.

They could have CW running 24/7 with solo and group queues and just keep a running tally of points to determine territory. They just had to make it complicated and exclusive for some reason.

This is a personal opinion and at best a misinformed one...how is it exclusive or complicated the way they are presenting it? Also what is the benefit of NOT being a well organized 12 man in CW? What is the benefit of not being in a group any time you play this game?

Short answer, there is none! Its a team game...team up or have a bad time currently. Maybe after the new year when the AI mode is talked about you will have somewhere to hide from the 12's while still enjoying your game. Quit being so self entitled, nothing done here was made with YOU and ONLY YOU in mind...sorry.

Edited by DarthRevis, 14 October 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Felio, on 13 October 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

...With no release valve. If they are so hardcore, they can arrange private matches. Or they can form smaller groups and sync drop and try their luck.

I am tired of being meat for the grinder; my enjoyment sacrificed for the enjoyment of others. This is not sustainable.

This specific reason is why I have not purchased a Clan Wave II package. I have no faith the game will be made enjoyable to play with friends again.

With all due respect. You are only a target for my fun. As I am the same for yours. We are all meat for the grinder and the sooner you realize that you will have more fun. I had a blast solo dropping for the Weekend challenge, and I had even more fun getting gutted buy Lords Sunday night with my friends. Depending on if you are expecting to be the Immortal Warrior or Felio Player of MW:O. In all my time on line playing this game, I have had 4-6 really bad nights! Since I started playing a bit more, I am finding I can Kill Omnis, Dire Wolves less than the rest but I still rack up a few of them.

Personally the more random the drop the funner the game is for me.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I'm still not convinced that any matchmaker system will ever produce better results than server browsers did. Instead of letting players pick their own preferences, shoehorn them into games that they might not enjoy just because... why, exactly? It skews the stats, hiding problems with certain maps and game modes by forcing them even when nobody would have picked them otherwise (witness how often conquest gets played since the game mode option was added). Online gaming got by just fine for the best part of two decades without matchmakers, and all they've ever added was the sensation of gambling with your fun time by frequently making you play with bits of the game you hate.

It hasn't done away with ragequitting, hasn't done away with uneven matches... what, exactly, has the general shift towards matchmakers and away from server browsers accomplished? Yes, I realize that stripping it out would require too much effort, so we're stuck with it. But... why on Earth would anyone *want* to put one of these in their game to begin with? Not having been around when that decision was made, I can't really see the reasoning behind it. It's a game FFS- recreation. Why are there random pits of un-fun lying around in the first place? "Gee, it looks like you've had enough fun for now; let's drop you on your least favorite map on a team of complete strangers against organized opposition with better equipment. Success!" All the time. In every game that's used a matchmaker. Ever. And yet developers still include the damned things...

[Revis Volek]

yalk, on 13 October 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Drop weight limits


Bigger the group, smaller the individual tonnage allowed...2 mans get more available tonnage per player, 12 mans get more tonnage per group but less per player

6x2mans (heavies+assaults) vs 1x12man (lights+mediums)

Obviously you wouldn't have to use all the tonnage so you'd still end up with small groups taking mediums and lights, but the option is there...

How about no....they already make large groups stick to 3/3/3/3 that is surely enough of a handicap when the small groups can get together and have 5 assaults on their squad vs our 3. So now you think we should be EVEN MORE handicapped and be stuck with only 55 ton mechs and under? Do you even hear what you are saying? So 12 mediums and lights vs 5-8 Assaults and rest heavies....yea sounds like great fun for everyone?

[Ph30nix]

i honestly have no problem with 4 mans and smaller being in the general Ques with the requirement that both teams have an = sized premade group. if one had a 4 man the other has to have a 4 man (no 4 man vs 2x2 mans)

anything bigger can only go vs other large groups.

Now majority of these problems would be solved if they would just implement in game voice coms.

[Jonathan Paine]

A couple of problems with the current matchmaker:
1. The matchmaker allows multiple tiny teams to fight large teams
- Once a side has 4-6 teams and the other has 1 or 2, the match is pretty much over before it starts.

2. Apart from a longer wait, there are no drawbacks to always filling up a 12 man of great players.
- Which is why a lot of the "competitive" teams will happily group up together to make sure they dont have to fight each other.
- Winning is rewarded the same whether you stomp 12 trial mechs or whether you upset the House of Lords

[Xtrekker]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 14 October 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm still not convinced that any matchmaker system will ever produce better results than server browsers did. Instead of letting players pick their own preferences, shoehorn them into games that they might not enjoy just because... why, exactly? It skews the stats, hiding problems with certain maps and game modes by forcing them even when nobody would have picked them otherwise (witness how often conquest gets played since the game mode option was added). Online gaming got by just fine for the best part of two decades without matchmakers, and all they've ever added was the sensation of gambling with your fun time by frequently making you play with bits of the game you hate.

It hasn't done away with ragequitting, hasn't done away with uneven matches... what, exactly, has the general shift towards matchmakers and away from server browsers accomplished? Yes, I realize that stripping it out would require too much effort, so we're stuck with it. But... why on Earth would anyone *want* to put one of these in their game to begin with? Not having been around when that decision was made, I can't really see the reasoning behind it. It's a game FFS- recreation. Why are there random pits of un-fun lying around in the first place? "Gee, it looks like you've had enough fun for now; let's drop you on your least favorite map on a team of complete strangers against organized opposition with better equipment. Success!" All the time. In every game that's used a matchmaker. Ever. And yet developers still include the damned things...

QFT

[jackal404]

Vassago Rain, on 13 October 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

There are no super competitive players left in the game, and the ones that do exist play on very specific days, at very specific hours, usually against each other in private matches.

They don't need to farm for c-bills or XP.

Sorry to disagree, but my friends and I (group of 3) dropped against an 8-man [Lord] plus a few others. If memory serves, they were fairly high in the big tournament held recently. Obviously, we got stomped 12-1.

http://cloud-4.steam...2981666903C9EF/

Edited by jackal404, 14 October 2014 - 10:09 AM.

[Revis Volek]

jackal404, on 14 October 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

Sorry to disagree, but my friends and I (group of 3) dropped against an 8-man [Lord] plus a few others. If memory serves, they were fairly high in the big tournament held recently. Obviously, we got stomped 12-1.

http://cloud-4.steam...2981666903C9EF/

Sorry to burst your bubble but its its just a 8 man, more then like was not even a DROP DEC and more then likely was just them "puggin"...


ggclose

[Joseph Mallan]

DarthRevis, on 14 October 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but its its just a 8 man, more then like was not even a DROP DEC and more then likely was just them "puggin"...


ggclose

8mans can't PUG!

[Revis Volek]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 October 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

8mans can't PUG!

Its the only safe way! i dont like STRANGERS (lolz) and the other night when me and a Clan mate got into the same match by chance we got reported for sync dropping ....damned if we do and damned if we dont i guess.

[Hoax415]

PS WrathOfDeadguy, on 14 October 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

I'm still not convinced that any matchmaker system will ever produce better results than server browsers did. Instead of letting players pick their own preferences, shoehorn them into games that they might not enjoy just because... why, exactly? It skews the stats, hiding problems with certain maps and game modes by forcing them even when nobody would have picked them otherwise (witness how often conquest gets played since the game mode option was added). Online gaming got by just fine for the best part of two decades without matchmakers, and all they've ever added was the sensation of gambling with your fun time by frequently making you play with bits of the game you hate.

It hasn't done away with ragequitting, hasn't done away with uneven matches... what, exactly, has the general shift towards matchmakers and away from server browsers accomplished? Yes, I realize that stripping it out would require too much effort, so we're stuck with it. But... why on Earth would anyone *want* to put one of these in their game to begin with? Not having been around when that decision was made, I can't really see the reasoning behind it. It's a game FFS- recreation. Why are there random pits of un-fun lying around in the first place? "Gee, it looks like you've had enough fun for now; let's drop you on your least favorite map on a team of complete strangers against organized opposition with better equipment. Success!" All the time. In every game that's used a matchmaker. Ever. And yet developers still include the damned things...

Not sure if serious...

Server Browser as you are calling it creates a system that very much excludes new players and keeps timid beta types away from the game.

Have you seen how many people claim that joining a player unit is akin to joining the military and signing up to be yelled at, assigned a rank and forced to practice and be online at fixed times?

Those guys. Wouldn't even have stuck around in a Server Browser game.

You know the hundreds of posts blaming large groups, elo, matchmaker, tonnage limits, sync dropping etc.? All those guys would quit if it was a server browser system. Those players can't handle pvp/competitive video games without the crutch of being able to pretend that its MM/elo "keeping them at .500 winrate". That the system prevents them from showing off their skills. In a server browser environment those excuses are all stripped away and that does not help with player retention.

Matchmaker and elo benefits those types and the ADD/ADHD types who only care about instant gratification.

Additionally server browser is awkward because "good" servers are always privately run affairs with their own special rules and moderation team. They create their own little oasis communities within Tribes, Quake2, CS, TF2, whatever. They run their own map rotation systems, voting systems, have their own rules and their own regulars.

What this means is that its a slow and sometimes humiliating process becoming a part of a good server once its established. Because sometimes early on your going to be kicked to make way when a regular comes online. Your going to go through some minor hazing or if your skill level is too low for that server you'll be kicked or asked to leave or sometimes even banned if the server is so popular that they just don't want to deal with newbs.

All of that kept FPS games more niche than they needed to be because it created a very intimidating environment for certain personality types. It also leads to sitting around waiting for a slot to open up in a server you consider "worth" playing on.

Its a fair and interesting question to ask, what would happen if MWO's private lobby system actually worked less like a hidden, pay-gated barely ever used feature and more like a way to setup temporary "servers" within the game? What if with a click of a checkbox you could make your lobby visible to other players to join instead of invite only. What if a robust and feature-full private lobby system had been part of the game at launch? How would things have been different in terms of the evolution of this community?

Edited by Hoax415, 14 October 2014 - 11:31 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Rather than changing group sizes or changing how the MM works, it would be more effective to have better communication tools amongst all players on a team. VOiP, I'm looking at you.

[hybrid black]

Felio, on 13 October 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

...With no release valve. If they are so hardcore, they can arrange private matches. Or they can form smaller groups and sync drop and try their luck.

I am tired of being meat for the grinder; my enjoyment sacrificed for the enjoyment of others. This is not sustainable.

This specific reason is why I have not purchased a Clan Wave II package. I have no faith the game will be made enjoyable to play with friends again.

Get friends or get better? But btw the first suggestion won't help yo win

[Ghogiel]

Sadist Cain, on 13 October 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

I can think of a few rounds where I've seen a small group utterly stamp a 12 man into oblivion.

Exactly. 12 mans of who is the question. A 6 man of good players will roll most of the 12s out there let alone smaller groups. So this large group thinking is still flawed.