87 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

Ghogiel, on 14 October 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Exactly. 12 mans of who is the question. A 6 man of good players will roll most of the 12s out there let alone smaller groups. So this large group thinking is still flawed.

Exception, meet Rule.


We'd need some real statistical data on this to know for sure, anecdotal doesn't fly.

[Ghogiel]

DarthRevis, on 14 October 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

Sorry to burst your bubble but its its just a 8 man, more then like was not even a DROP DEC and more then likely was just them "puggin"...


ggclose

it was a 10man actually. For a couple hours at least they were a 12man that night too. No one needs to worry though, the noobs don't get to play them very often as there are other teams that aren't whiney ******* syncing with them and playing them 5 times in a row...

[Ghogiel]

CapperDeluxe, on 14 October 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Exception, meet Rule.


We'd need some real statistical data on this to know for sure, anecdotal doesn't fly.

Yeah it would be nice to have collected every end of round from the top few comp teams while in 6mans just so we can say yes their W/L against 12mans is 60%+.

Though we don't really need to because we all know it's true . Many have played in the all night win streaks in less than 12 mans with top players. Many more have watched the streams with the all night win streaks happening live.

[Deathlike]

Seriously, my head just wants to explode when I read these kinds of threads because frankly, everyone's freaking selfish.

There's two ways of looking at it, both of them flawed on their own merits.

1) The system as is right now is flawed, given that all small groups (2-4 mans) will end to match up with bigger premades (8-10 mans) to fight the opposition.

The small group is occasionally thrown to the wolves, as they are expected to work with the premade at a whim, and are possibly just meat shields for the opfor. Then again, if the small group doesn't WANT to work as a bigger group, then they tend to go off on their own, and lower their chances of winning... instead of trying to work together as a team.

On the other side, the bigger premade is the focal point of success, yet they might not be the most structured of teams. Not all large premades are the same... especially if they are not serious as THEY CAN FULL WELL LOSE WHEN BEING UNCOORDINATED.

Working together = Teamwork = OP

The fact that people don't even recognize this in their own selfish arguments is just sad.

2) Having a small groups queue (forget the bigger premades for a moment) could possibly help the situation, but it's not a sure thing.

ANY integration with a small group in the solo queue only produces bad vibes/juju, primarily because there will always be paranoid people who are scared of sync drops and assume ANY form of structured teamwork is going to dramatically change the skill required to compete. You're not going to convince the solo conspirators there.

A small group queue would lump only 2-4 mans together... in the hopes that "it should be even" in terms of the teams. The reality is that why would say a 4-man Lords team suddenly become "worse" than any random 4-man team? While it won't magically solve anything ultimately, if you feel "comfortable" with it, it's good for the long term retention rate of the game. However, IT WILL NOT replace people making excuses for losing.

Again, if you refuse to learn to get better and play as a team, you're going to lose more often than not. Teamwork is OP, and failing to accomplish that puts the onus on the players that didn't do what they need to do to win.

The best solution is still to add volunteers that are playing solo or a small group to be part of the big queue (a 3rd queue). Otherwise, playing with random people that would randomly decide to help each other will hurt the ultimate cause... teamwork, it's still OP.

The only idea I'd throw out is to have non-full 12v12 matches (at least 7-mans + volunteering solos + volunteering small premades) with "reasonably even Elo and weight class matching") if trying to construct a full 12v12 is difficult if there are 3 separate queues.

[Hoax415]

CapperDeluxe, on 14 October 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Exception, meet Rule.


We'd need some real statistical data on this to know for sure, anecdotal doesn't fly.

I've played too much group queue to believe any of this nonsense about wild comp team 12 mans roaming around destroying small groups over and over and over.

There is a huge uptick in competition once you go from even 10-man to 12-man. In the FWLM ad-hoc groups, which are not in the same universe as comp teams, we only ever see the 3 Ember / 3 Mad Cat / 3 Dragon Slayer type levels of organized pure stomp 12-man when we are 12. Even at 10 it would be such a rarity that I can't even be sure its happened in 100's of drops.

Likewise there is a big uptick in enemy skill once you get to 8+ size groups even if the skill of your group has stayed the same. You clearly get an elo boost around 8 or 9 as that's when you'll start seeing big groups lose against better pilots carrying their teammates with 600-1200 damage games.

Its the skilled and organized 6-man that can be a real predator. But its all good. They can lose too. Everyone can and does lose. Except maybe the most apex of apex predator. But none of the terribads who blame matchmaking and elo for every loss is ever running into a Lord or 228 12-man. Proof or it never happened.

Meanwhile any smart and observant player will tell you that not all big groups are created equal, casual play is not some special thing only small groups take part in.

There is a massive difference in our groups between when we are teaching 1-3 new players the ropes and when we aren't. A huge difference even with all vet pilots between when guys are all bringing real, fully skilled, fully moduled mechs and when guys are trying to level RVN-2X's that aren't even basic'd level mechs. There's even a massive difference in success rate that comes from having someone calling shots and when nobody can be bothered or everyone is too high/drunk/tired.

When we are in a 8+ man and we're firing on all cylinders its rare to lose to disorganized teams of 3-6 smaller groups. When we are playing "casual", plenty of people have messed us up in smaller groups when they are playing with their tryhard pants on not crying before the game starts about how MM screwed them. If you want to win more the best thing you can do is play better not look for your excuse for why you aren't going to win the second the game loads.

But whatever, any player smart enough has learned that lesson long ago.

Edited by Hoax415, 14 October 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[-Natural Selection-]

No issues here when playing anywhere from 2-12. Win some, loose some, suck it up & move on and try to get better.

Good time to have k/d, w/l under forum icon for post like this.

[Squally160]

Mickey Knoxx, on 14 October 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

No issues here when playing anywhere from 2-12. Win some, loose some, suck it up & move on and try to get better.

Good time to have k/d, w/l under forum icon for post like this.

No fair, my k/d is trash because you steal all my kills ; ;

Also, this thread, makes me cry.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mickey Knoxx, on 14 October 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

No issues here when playing anywhere from 2-12. Win some, loose some, suck it up & move on and try to get better.

Good time to have k/d, w/l under forum icon for post like this.

I think we should use an MRBC tier system instead of Elo, that way if the poster with a D or C rating under his/her name puts up a "waaaaghhhh.... Lords 12manz stomped me 42 times in a row... group queue am broken...." we'll know he's full of it and can get the thread thrown into Ktown.