60 replies to this topic

[Leo Kraeas]

Radar deprivation has been out for a while now and it is safe to say that it has changed the way people play.
For those who don't know, Radar Deprivation (which I will abbreviate to RD henceforth) causes any targeting data and accompanying locks to be immediately lost when line of sight is broken. In a way this is a sort of pseudo ECM for all mechs and comes in handy when fighting against those dreaded "LRM NOOBS". Now, RD does come with it's own set of quirks including: Your enemy losing missile locks from ducking behind cover away from your own missiles, Losing locks from an enemy passing behind cables and antennae, missiles dumbly slamming into the ground in front of you when first firing on a newly acquired enemy who owns RD, and giving protection from TAG while under the effects of ECM.

Now I did say that these were quirks as I am sure that not all of them are intended functions.
Firstly losing line of sight is indeed the determining factor here making our first quirk "working as intended". However, this rule behaves strangely with the other quirks as it uses the cockpit hit-box to determine line of sight and the way that ECM currently behaves. Because of the cockpit hit-box being used as the determining factor you have the ability to park an Atlas behind an antenna in order to avoid missile locks and generally keeping the Red Triangle of DOOM off of itself. This is a clever use of this amazing RD module but I would hope not entirely intended. Now this leads into our next quirk TAG vs. RD + ECM. A tag laser can be used to acquire a lock on a target with RD who is under ECM, but the lock only lasts as long as the laser stays on the target. If the TAG laser leaves the hit-box areas of the targeted mech for even .25 seconds the lock is lost. It behaves this way because ECM currently tells the game that all mechs within range of the ECM mech are counted as being out of line of sight to any enemy outside of the sensor deprivation range. This is all well and good if you like being able to casually stroll across an occupied field without an umbrella! Once again, this is an amazing quirk from the RD module!

So now lets talk about RD drawbacks. It costs as much as a medium mech at the not so low price of 6,000,000 c-bills, It takes up 1 mech module slot you probably were not going to use for anything else, It might weigh on your soul about how powerful it makes you (but at least it doesn't cost any tonnage!). In order to better mitigate its drawbacks I suggest the following: save up and buy this module, put it in your mech module slot and then master your chassis, it weighs nothing so enjoy zero calorie sinfulness.

This module is a must buy! Pseudo ECM is very strong and you really have noting to lose. The quirks are all problems for your opponent to deal with. If they don't like it then they should buy RD too! And probably Radar decay as well...





Frankly, this module is buggy to play against and is so good that no one should play without it. It is far more powerful than radar decay although RD is far less punishing to those with it (allowing an entire second of lock time except when also under ECM ~.~). Might I suggest making radar decay have a polar opposite effect to Radar decay instead. make it cut decay time down by the same amount radar decay increases it by so that the modules play as counters to each other without absolutely punishing players who don't have one or the other. Cutting decay time down to 1.5 seconds or less is still very powerful while still allowing for clever piloting to win the day. Currently the only hard counter to RD is NARC and excellent spotting but these can also be countered by our old nemesis ECM. I like RD and what it could be, but it currently seems mandatory with how powerful a module it is.

I have no plans to TL:DR this. I politely ask you not complain if you cannot take the time to read a post shorter than the instruction manual for Super Mario Bros, and have nothing constructive to add as feedback for the developers to consider.

[Egomane]

Not a feature suggestion, I'm seeing here. Moving to GD!

[Mark Brandhauber]

All I can say about radar derp is I need about another 50 of them..... a must have module to say the least.

[Cyborne Elemental]

IMO, its far too powerful and should be weighted equipment.

I haven't had to run AMS at all since I started using it.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Radar Dep, like ECM is an end all be all 1 size fits all type of gear......a bit to powerful that it pretty much is a get it or die.....Of all the modules on that list, which is the only one anyone bothers with? Radar dep.....so yeah, id vote its kinda oP....

[Aron]

Definately not OP, I still get hit with LRMs frequently (No Narc ..) it just gives you a chance to avoid them by taking cover! EMC might be a different issue but still Radar Deprivation and EMC made the game fun/playable for me again.

So I'd appreciate changes done to both ECM and LRMs at the same time, otherwise it's a plain LRM buff!

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

It's great for my little lights.

[Kmieciu]

I never leave my hangar without radar derp and seismic...

[Livewyr]

Radar dep is a requirement for every mech.

[Joseph Mallan]

I don't seem to have a problem without it. I will likely get one eventually, but till then...

[STEF_]

I always have it + seismic when I try to play well.

[Valore]

Fun fact, most dedicated LRM boats will carry Target Decay.

Target Decay will negate the effects of Radar Dep.

So you are not invulnerable to LRM fire. You just don't get screwed over by Target Decay.

[Mawai]

First there were LRMs ...
... then LRMageddon ... the bug was fixed but the damage was done.

... then ECM was created and lo LRMs either worked or did not.

... much complaining was heard ... LRM damage was increased ... so LRMs either worked REALLY well or not at all. ECM was required to survive the LRM deluge.

... then slowly (painfully slowly) ... TAG, NARC and BAP were created or changed to weigh on the ECM balance and lo LRMs became more powerful ... but when ECM wasn't present LRMs were still more than deadly.

... then Radar Deprivation was introduced so that everyone who was able to run behind cover were now able to avoid some of the swarms or LRMs.

... Radar Deprivation is a module that is equipped on every mech I play ... usually in addition to AMS.


However, this did not stop my Jager from being destroyed on Caustic before a match really started. Either NARCed, UAVed or spotted with no ECM on my team ... the other team did rain LRMs on my poor Jager. No cover behind the rim of the crater, no LOS to the opposing team at all from what I could see, Less than 20 seconds later my Jager was dead without even firing a shot (despite a radar deprivation module).


LRMs are the only weapon in the game where EVERY mech on the opposing team can fire at one target if they like because line of sight is not required. In most situations, terrain will limit regular direct line of sight weapons to 1 to 3 opponents (more than that and they start getting in each others way for the most part). However, with LRMs, I have seen 6 or more mechs located all over the battlefield spamming one target ... it does not last long under these circumstances. THAT is the true power and the issue with LRMs ... one mech boating them isn't that big a deal ... but when almost every clan mech has an LRM of some sort as a back up if nothing else ... when you add dedicated LRM boats and the occasional launcher on other mechs ... none of whom need line of sight (only the spotter or UAV or NARC) ... then LRMs quickly destroy most opponents ... opponents who can typically do nothing about it. This is generally frustrating and not much fun.

The problem goes back to the entire chain of balancing listed above ... massed LRMs are powerful ... they can wipe out opponents in seconds with even moderately coordinated fire. Even if LRMs were limited in some stupid way to two launchers/chassis .. a team could still field 24 launchers ... with LRM15s that is 360 missiles/volley ... or pretty much one dead mech.

Now we get to design ...

1) Do we make LRMs weak so that one mech fitting LRMs is underpowered but when you put 2 to 4 such mechs together it is effective? (All the rest of the balance provisions like ECM etc are probably not needed in this case).

2) Do we make LRMs reasonably powerful so that one mech can do a fair bit of damage against an exposed target? What do we do to counter teams of LRMs in this case? Or at least multiple mechs using LRMs?

So ... PGI chose option 2 ... make LRMs individually powerful ... which makes massed LRMs overpowered ... so they introduced hard counters and counter-counters and so on ...

The Radar Deprivation is required since you can't rely on a random team to have ECM. AMS is insufficient by itself and Radar Deprivation will at least give you a chance if the other side has significant LRMs.

[Karl Streiger]

OK it will be nerfed soon - reason is simple - soon I will be able to buy me a couple of them.... and as usually as soon as i bought something it get nerfed

Mawai, on 07 October 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

1) Do we make LRMs weak so that one mech fitting LRMs is underpowered but when you put 2 to 4 such mechs together it is effective? (All the rest of the balance provisions like ECM etc are probably not needed in this case).

2) Do we make LRMs reasonably powerful so that one mech can do a fair bit of damage against an exposed target? What do we do to counter teams of LRMs in this case? Or at least multiple mechs using LRMs?

So ... PGI chose option 2 ... make LRMs individually powerful ... which makes massed LRMs overpowered ... so they introduced hard counters and counter-counters and so on ...

The Radar Deprivation is required since you can't rely on a random team to have ECM. AMS is insufficient by itself and Radar Deprivation will at least give you a chance if the other side has significant LRMs.

Sometimes it looks as - LRM are more powerful when fired indirect - can remember a couple of times where i had LOS on a target - and did rain LRM on him - just me and my Thunderbolts single LRM. I fired and fired and fired - two tons of ammunition - all the time with LOS

I hardly scratched them - but when you are in the open - and some enemy mechs throw 2 tons of LRM at you - fired indirect your mech is vaporized.

Only way i can think to solve that is to have 2 launcher systems - similar to the Clan LBX + Clan Standard AC. You can fire your week extreme range LRMs in indirect mode - or fire more powerful LRMs with LOS.

Anyhow - for every weapon system the spread have to be increased (its not really funny, that a LRM 5 has less spread in comparison with a LRM 20 -resulting in the effect that firring 4 LRM 5s at once don't spread as much as a single salvo of LRM20s.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 07 October 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[Ultimax]

Valore, on 07 October 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

Fun fact, most dedicated LRM boats will carry Target Decay.

Target Decay will negate the effects of Radar Dep.

So you are not invulnerable to LRM fire. You just don't get screwed over by Target Decay.

Bingo.

[FupDup]

Radar Derp is right behind Seismic Wallhack as one of the must-have modules on every build.

[topgun505]

RD does one thing and one thing only. It breaks lock for units that lose LOS to it.

That effects ... what?
Streaks. Largely moot since if you are in range of SSRMs then odds are you are close enough that you should be able to keep LOS on your target most of the time.

Other than SSRMs, that just leaves LRMs. So for all the QQ I keep seeing about RD being OP this tells me one thing. That if RD makes THAT much of a difference then LRMs by definition must NOT be currently balanced.

You want RD toned down or eliminated? Ok sure. But you WILL have to do a balance pass on LRMs as part of that process

[Wolfways]

Never used it and don't see the point of it other than another LRM nerf

[Angel of Annihilation]

Aron, on 07 October 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Definately not OP, I still get hit with LRMs frequently (No Narc ..) it just gives you a chance to avoid them by taking cover! EMC might be a different issue but still Radar Deprivation and EMC made the game fun/playable for me again.

So I'd appreciate changes done to both ECM and LRMs at the same time, otherwise it's a plain LRM buff!

Agree here. It is useful but I am still the subject of alot of LRM rain and have been killed by non-NARC or TAG, LRMs quite often. Also it can be somewhat countered by target retention which most LRM boats will be mounting as another "must have" module. Basically my understanding that target retention rolls back radar deprivation to normal lock times.

In the end, the game is about choices. Chose what you want. Want LRMs to retain lock longer chose target retention. Not worried about Radar Dep modules, don't mount it.

Alternatively, I guess we could just nerf the overall effectiveness of LRMs across the board and remove the radar deprivation module but I think forcing Mechs to chose to use Radar Deprivation in place of other modules is better for balance than making LRMs worse against targets out in the open or not using the module. Given a choice, I think most would agree with me here.

[Deathlike]

Radar Deprivation is not just for LRMs... but designing modules that are more powerful than the rest... this is working as intended™. I mean, Seismic was the best goto module once upon a time (and still is, if you use it properly).