333 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Bront, on 16 October 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

FYI, they're going tonnage, not 1/1/1/1. Likely 240 tons.

Wait so you want to play the equivalent of "hard mode" in a game and want to be able to do well without spending any time or money on such things? I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from? Because the more you write the more entitled you seem to be? Maybe im off base....

[jozkhan]

Kelly Zmak - the former President of IGP - who were up until August PGI's publisher for MWO... stated on record in the early days of MWO (you can google the articles) - that he was an admirer of the Korean business model for MMOs (i.e. the longer grind) and obviously that filtered into MWO economy.

It would be well worth asking PGI about this now, with IGP no longer in control if the Korean business model philosophy of the longer grind still holds sway with the MWO economy now PGI have taken up the reins.

[Rushin Roulette]

Actually, If PGI would want to make MORE money (as in MC Purchases), then they would increase the player Cbill earnings so that Premium players can easily buy a new mech (average price of all IS mechs) after making enough Mech XP to master the current mecg. Non premium players or premium players who use consumables (these could be raised in price to compensate and to minimise spam) would have to play a little longer before being able to buy a new mech.

How can PGI make more money by giving players more money? Easily explained... PGI make absolutely no money from free to play players who like everyone else gets Cbills for free just by playing... Where PGI makes the money is from Mechbay, visual customisation and hero mech sales;

Players who want cockpit visual enhancements would be buying these no matter if they have Cbills over or not (as long as the game is interresting enough for them to stay, so they make money from these players)

Players who want to play hero mechs (because they want the Hardpoints or the looks dont care about Cbills, so no change here either.

Players who dont care about visuals or special hero mechs wont buy these no matter what as long as they arent tempted too much (ie. Special sale). Where these players can easily be tempted to spend MCs however, is in mechbays. Players who master mechs faster also spend MCs faster to further buy Mechbays to collect new mechs to spend the earned Cbills. With the slow earnings as they are now, Mechbays are being bought less frequently, which in turn means slower MC sales.

[Bront]

DarthRevis, on 16 October 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Wait so you want to play the equivalent of "hard mode" in a game and want to be able to do well without spending any time or money on such things? I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from? Because the more you write the more entitled you seem to be? Maybe im off base....

What? I was letting another player know what the limits might be in CW. How does that make me entitled?

I'm a paying player. I've spent money on MC, and I've preordered a package. The only video game I've spent more money on is Rock Band (I have nearly 1000 songs, 4 guitars, a set of pro drums, a keyboard, 3 mics, and a mic stand. It was over a few years, but at $1-2 a song for DLC, it wasn't cheap either). But I know people who aren't, and even as a paying player, I often feel that the rewards for playing are disgustingly small. If anything, the importance of the CBills in the rewards PGI gave us have shown me how bad the earnings level have been.

What I want is a game that can help attract and keep new players, and bring back players who left due to the grind needed. Instead, PGI has added extra CBill sinks that in my experience have actually driven players away because it's become more stuff they need in order to build up the mechs they want to play.

Listen, it's one thing to spend 42 hours playing in mechs you enjoy, but the game requires you to spend that time earning a mech in the first place. Why burn players out before they get even part of what they want?

[Combat Loss Grouping]

MoonUnitBeta, on 15 October 2014 - 11:35 PM, said:

So yeah. The model isn't going to change anytime soon. You have many options available to you to choose premium time for your gaming day splurges. That's just the way it is unfortunately and if you don't like it, well suck it up princess and enjoy the grind because you're playing for free buddy, and its people with the money that's keeping the game alive for you.

That's a lot of words to explain that PGI is hurting itself by sticking to its current pricing/model.

[Bront]

Rushin Roulette, on 16 October 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

PGI make absolutely no money from free to play players who like everyone else gets Cbills for free just by playing.

This is not exactly true either. Non-playing players are content for playing players. It sounds sick and callous, but without free players, there's not a big player base for the paying players to play, so they start leaving as well.

Besides, the longer a free player plays, the more likely he is to dip a bit of money into the game.

[jozkhan]

It is pretty obvious that going right back through the history of the game that PGI have always left money on the table in so far as getting the most out of the player / customer relationship.

A lot of this was meant to change with UI 2.0 but has only really been half measures compared to other games that do get it right.

[Revis Volek]

gregsolidus, on 15 October 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Who is going to have 40 separate mechs?!?

I have 77.....Some in my groups are at 140 plus? Is that really so far fetched?

Bront, on 16 October 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

This is not exactly true either. Non-playing players are content for playing players. It sounds sick and callous, but without free players, there's not a big player base for the paying players to play, so they start leaving as well.

Besides, the longer a free player plays, the more likely he is to dip a bit of money into the game.

Statistically speaking yes, but that doesn't mean anything. You cannot say for sure without seeing the numbers if they make any substantial profit off F2P only gamers. I doubt they even spend enough money in a year to pay one month of PGI's electric cost.

Edited by DarthRevis, 16 October 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[Bluttrunken]

"42 (31 with the new player bonus) hours to master 3 medium mechs."

Sounds reasonable to me. This game isn't meant to be free and 42 hours isnt much. Assaults are a *real* pain in the ass with approx. 45-50 million for fitting 3 variants. Considering expensive parts like modules and Engines(maybe High-Caliber Weapons) you can always share those between your mechs. I always need to refit the 2 modules I own but *luckily* could afford Engines for all mechs I regularly drive. And not to forget the regular challenges with freebies for participants.

I'm currently sitting on 8 million c-bills, even as I only have time to do a couple of matches now and then. If I play like 3-4 hourse my gain is around ~3-4 million c-bills(iirc). Considering that I get all of that for *free* and that I could have the whole game with *all* content for free as well that's a great deal. Everytime I spent money it's because I wanted to support the developers and because I have alot of fun in this game(with the exception of Sarah's Jenner which was a charity mech). Everyone who plays this game for free and *then* expects everything to be handed to him is an *****(unreasonable person).

Atm Mechwarrior is really, really fair in it's free to play model. Some things take long, Heavy/Assaults and GXP, but in the end you get a great game you don't need to spend any money on. I don't see why anybody could complain with the current model. I already mastered 4 mechs just with in-game earnings and I'm working on a Centurion, from which I own 2 chassis already and bought several single chassis I wanted to test(2 Cicadas, 1 Nova, 1 Kitfox which I sold again).

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 16 October 2014 - 07:16 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Combat Loss Grouping, on 16 October 2014 - 06:58 AM, said:

That's a lot of words to explain that PGI is hurting itself by sticking to its current pricing/model.

Fantastic job avoiding dicussing anything at all.
Still waiting on your idea of a pricing model and how you'll ease the hordes of players with banked time that are paying for the game for you.
1 day of premium is basically an all you can eat buffet for the day. It's weird though because I see those resturants all over town here.

So you see, just because you want the time to tick down only while you're logged in, it doesn't mean that it's automatically a better deal. You just THINK it's a better deal because you want it to be a better deal. I'm sure you would be tweeting a different tune when you start to play a lot more often and realize how much it's starting to cost you.

So again. Tell PGI what you think would be a good solution to what you want. I'm sure if it made an ounce of sense from a business stand point they'd listen. I'm just going to resign from this dead end conversation now because I know when you actually start to think about that new pricing model, you'll find a bunch of pit falls and ultimately give up because how much work it is, how little sense it makes, and how easily you can screw yourself and everyone else over.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 16 October 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[Mawai]

Hi,

I'd like to disagree with some of your numbers

The total you come to for a Shadowhawk is 24 mill. 10 mill for the chassis and upgrades and 14 mill for modules.

1) I have been playing since closed beta. I own a total of 3 weapon modules ... not because I need them but because I thought I would try them out. They don't make enough difference to be worth 3,000,000 cbills each and they are not essential.

2) I have only ever purchased one of any module. It is inconvenient but I simply swap them between mechs ... they are too expensive to purchase more than one.

3) I have only ever purchased one of any XL engine. As with modules, they simply cost too much to be worthwhile buying more than one so I simply swap them (the only reason I have two 300XL is because I bought Sarah's Jenner for a good cause).



Modules and engines are economies of scale ... you only ever buy one. Thus, when you go to get another Shadowhawk you aren't paying 24 mill or even 10 mill ... you are paying about 4.5 mill for the base shadowhawk variants. Since you already bought the engine and some weapons for the first version ... they aren't needed for the next.

So all 3 variants cost about 20 million.

I do think that the double heat sink upgrade could do with a price reduction ... it is used for every mech .. compared to modules, double heat sinks is ridiculously overpowered and is essential for almost any build. Endo and FF are less so but the cost of DHS really does need to be factored into the base cost of a mech.

Assault mechs cost more. Clan mechs cost much much more

However, if you want to drive lights or mediums the investment in grind time is not nearly as bad as your numbers try to portray.

20 mill /100,000 = 200 matches ~= 33 hours of play time (it is probably closer to 7 games/hour than 6 in my experience but I will use 6 since it makes the numbers easier) ... excluding cadet bonuses. It takes somewhere around 60 to 80 matches to reach master on a mech ... so the time spent mastering it is about equal to the amount of cbills you need to get the mechs.

There are a couple of modules that will prove useful but are not essential. Radar deprivation and Advanced Zoom are the ones I most commonly use. Target info and Target decay would probably be the next two ... Target decay is useful for LRM boats mostly ... but none of the modules are absolutely required to have fun with this game. Not having them does not put you at a significant disadvantage. I would rather have someone without modules who can aim on my team than someone with modules who can't


Anyway, PGI has the data on cbill income, MC purchases and the other information required for an informed decision on cbill earnings ... I play casually, have purchased most of my mechs in packs over the last 2 1/2 years (founders, phoenix, one clan pack) ... don't regret it and make enough cbills by grinding to customize mechs as well as buy the occasional engine, module or new variant. If cbills had been much more plentiful, I suspect I would have spent less. When the game went to open beta I actually spent some MC on standard mechs just to get started. If cbills had been more plentiful I likely would not have done so ... but everyone has different experiences.

[WarHippy]

They really need to revert the 20-30% cut they implemented when they added 12v12. The grind has always been a bit rough, but that reduction and their reason for doing it was completely asinine.

[Torgun]

DarthRevis, on 16 October 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Statistically speaking yes, but that doesn't mean anything. You cannot say for sure without seeing the numbers if they make any substantial profit off F2P only gamers. I doubt they even spend enough money in a year to pay one month of PGI's electric cost.

I have a feeling you would not enjoy playing with only paying players, because then you'd have a lot less players online, with the subsequent longer waiting times to get into matches. Small pvp games like MWO need free players, or else it would not be able to keep running. That's why I always facepalm whenever a whale tells free players to STFU and be grateful to them. Because what they fail to see is they should also be grateful free players exist. It's a clear situation of symbiosis, where if when part is gone the game would die.

On topic: CBill payouts are bad, revert the ridiculous nerf from when we went from 8 vs 8 to 12 vs 12.

Edited by Torgun, 16 October 2014 - 07:50 AM.

[mogs01gt]

KamikazeRat, on 15 October 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

so...i hate being THAT GUY...but, the grind is just how F2P works. it makes buying PT and reduce your grind by 50% look really good.

That isnt how F2P works. Successful F2P games gives players content and doesnt weight players down with high cost of "toons". Just look how League of Legends function.

[Mawai]

WarHippy, on 16 October 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

They really need to revert the 20-30% cut they implemented when they added 12v12. The grind has always been a bit rough, but that reduction and their reason for doing it was completely asinine.

I'd like to see the numbers and the reasoning for their change.

I know the stated reason was that 12v12 increased the number of kills and assists possible and thus would increase incomes. They may also have wanted to get an overall reduction in cbill earnings since they may have had numbers indicating that the grind was a bit too easy (or the directive may have come from IGP on this issue).

However, by now they should have immense amounts of data on the income levels over time for every game mode as well as both 12v12 and 8v8. They can look at what they want as the average (maybe it is 100k) ... see how close they are, look at outliers, and decide whether the cbill earnings could use an adjustment or not.

Most players won't mind more cbills to buy stuff ... but in my opinion, if this has any sort of negative impact on revenues then it isn't really justifiable. More people playing probably means more costs depending on the hosting agreement and how much it costs for a single match ... and this means that increased player base needs to be able to support itself with increased revenues ... the primary motivation to spend money in free to play games that are NOT pay to win ... is to pay to reduce grind ... this means that there MUST be a grind, it MUST be onerous for a significant fraction of players and this motivates some fraction of players to pay to reduce the grind ... most often by purchasing premium time and hero mechs.

[Sorbic]

Asmudius Heng, on 16 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

Thats why i said kills OR assists. If you have high damage, low kills, but decent assists you probably contributed well.

Low assists means you didnt hit many different enemies, it means you did a lot of damage to just a few - and that is usually a sign of inefficient killing.

I definitely agree with the assist thing if we're talking about wins/close games. I've been primarily talking about the many loses in which there are few assists to be had and the complete lack of rewards for your effort.

[Marmon Rzohr]

IMHO, PGI should increase player rewards. But in a specific way.

They should give more stuff to two types of players - the really devoted who play a lot and the ones who play the least.
The best way to do this, IMHO, would be missions and daily doubles, stuff like that.

Give players double C-Bills for the first win of the day in any 4 different mechs, for instance. This will give a boost to players who struggle to play a lot, without devaluing Hero Mechs and Premium Time.

For the devoted players there could be monthly missions. Big, fat grindy ones that give you stuff like 10k GXP, in other words if someone jumps in the game and has the will to play it seriously, give them a chance to get stuff like modules that they need to be competitive, by grinding fast and hard, rather than over a long time.
These missions could occasionally also give stuff that's cool. Like a special camo pattern, a Hero Mech even, etc. to give devoted players the feeling they are being valued for the time they put in, not just the money.


But all in all the grind in this game isn't so bad. Especially since you don't NEED to buy premium time to realistically advance in the game. To anyone having a tough time grinding and not willing to pay for premium - buy a Hero Mech - a good one. It helps quite a bit in earning more.

[Bront]

Mawai, on 16 October 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Modules and engines are economies of scale ... you only ever buy one. Thus, when you go to get another Shadowhawk you aren't paying 24 mill or even 10 mill ... you are paying about 4.5 mill for the base shadowhawk variants. Since you already bought the engine and some weapons for the first version ... they aren't needed for the next.

FYI, the Shadowhawk 5M, the one I specifically used, is a great starter mech because it starts out upgraded and with an XL engine, but it runs just over 8 million. Plus 2 million to get the spare weapons and gear to build it up, and that's assuming you use the stock engine.

Meanwhile, the economy of scale is one way to play, but keep in mind that when CW comes, you'll need 4 mechs, and there's a good chance you'll want all 4 mechs kitted out with the best stuff you can put in it. That might require more than 1 of a particular type of engine and/or module for several people. Not to mention you may want different mechs for attack vs defense.

Edited by Bront, 16 October 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[WarHippy]

Mawai, on 16 October 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

I'd like to see the numbers and the reasoning for their change.

I know the stated reason was that 12v12 increased the number of kills and assists possible and thus would increase incomes. They may also have wanted to get an overall reduction in cbill earnings since they may have had numbers indicating that the grind was a bit too easy (or the directive may have come from IGP on this issue).

However, by now they should have immense amounts of data on the income levels over time for every game mode as well as both 12v12 and 8v8. They can look at what they want as the average (maybe it is 100k) ... see how close they are, look at outliers, and decide whether the cbill earnings could use an adjustment or not.

Most players won't mind more cbills to buy stuff ... but in my opinion, if this has any sort of negative impact on revenues then it isn't really justifiable. More people playing probably means more costs depending on the hosting agreement and how much it costs for a single match ... and this means that increased player base needs to be able to support itself with increased revenues ... the primary motivation to spend money in free to play games that are NOT pay to win ... is to pay to reduce grind ... this means that there MUST be a grind, it MUST be onerous for a significant fraction of players and this motivates some fraction of players to pay to reduce the grind ... most often by purchasing premium time and hero mechs.

I agree with what you are saying. I will add that there is a thin line between giving people an incentive to purchase to avoid the grind, and making people feel forced to purchase in order to get anywhere. If you run people off with too much grind before they get into the game you are never going to get anything from them, but if you hook them with just enough grind that it doesn't run them off they are more likely to stay and spend money both of which are good for the game.

As for the numbers the last time they gave us numbers on income it was roughly an average of 8 min and 79k C-bills per match across the player base. That to me is way too low. If they don't want to increase back to the old numbers I would be content if they added a first win of the day bonus similar to the xp bonus but different in that it would only apply to the first win in each weight class for a max of 4 bonuses.

Edited by WarHippy, 16 October 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Mawai]

Rushin Roulette, on 16 October 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Actually, If PGI would want to make MORE money (as in MC Purchases), then they would increase the player Cbill earnings so that Premium players can easily buy a new mech (average price of all IS mechs) after making enough Mech XP to master the current mecg. Non premium players or premium players who use consumables (these could be raised in price to compensate and to minimise spam) would have to play a little longer before being able to buy a new mech.

How can PGI make more money by giving players more money? Easily explained... PGI make absolutely no money from free to play players who like everyone else gets Cbills for free just by playing... Where PGI makes the money is from Mechbay, visual customisation and hero mech sales;

Players who want cockpit visual enhancements would be buying these no matter if they have Cbills over or not (as long as the game is interresting enough for them to stay, so they make money from these players)

Players who want to play hero mechs (because they want the Hardpoints or the looks dont care about Cbills, so no change here either.

Players who dont care about visuals or special hero mechs wont buy these no matter what as long as they arent tempted too much (ie. Special sale). Where these players can easily be tempted to spend MCs however, is in mechbays. Players who master mechs faster also spend MCs faster to further buy Mechbays to collect new mechs to spend the earned Cbills. With the slow earnings as they are now, Mechbays are being bought less frequently, which in turn means slower MC sales.

Ummm .. the main reason I find to buy hero mechs is the 30% cbill bonus ... PGI has been pretty careful to make most hero mechs hard point neutral and not offer an advantage over their regular counterparts. Increasing cbill earnings to the extent where most folks have enough might well kill the market for hero mechs ... which has to be one of their prime sources of revenue.

Similarly, the main reason for premium time is to reduce the grind. If cbill income is increased so F2P players are happy and don't have to grind much then premium time sales will also tank.

Mech customization and mech bays are not sufficient to keep the game afloat.

Edited by Mawai, 16 October 2014 - 08:20 AM.