64 replies to this topic

[UrsusMorologus]

I like the idea of quirks improving the overall performance of specific weapons on specific mechs, but I am not a fan of changing the behavior of weapon projectiles. It is counterproductive.

If you want to say AC20 reload time is shorter because hunchback has an optimized loading racks, that is good. It provides a nice buff, a little immersion, and encourages specialization and canon loadout. But you should not have a quirk that says the projectile travels further. That is not good. This is supposed to be an off-the-shelf weapon using basic ammo, so the munition should perform exactly the same for all of them. Similar for the PPC, you should certainly buff the heat dissipation, which in turn will allow for faster fire rates, but you should not change the speed of the projectile.

Another factor is that changing the projectile behavior will be disruptive to people who switch between chassis frequently. If a PPC moves at a certain speed on all mechs but this one, then when I switch to the special one I might actually perform worse because my timing and aim is all wrong. Its actually unhelpful, potentially harmful in some cases. [Modules get around this because you can slot the module on every mech, quirk buffs are not portable.]

Another thing is that changing the projectile behavior adds a corner-case dimension to balance which will make it harder to affect broad-scale balance changes. Want a module to improve flight speed? Well you have to consider how it affects the few quirks.

Integration buffs good. Projectile buffs bad.

[Jacob Side]

Example of 30-06 bullet velocity


150 gr (10 g) Nosler Ballistic Tip 2,910 ft/s (890 m/s)
165 gr (11 g) BTSP 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s)
180 gr (12 g) Core-Lokt Soft Point 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s)
200 gr (13 g) Partition 2,569 ft/s (783 m/s)
220 gr (14 g) RN 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s)


So tell us again why they shouldn't buff projectile speed?

[UrsusMorologus]

I already told you, gave 3 solid arguments, maybe read those

[XphR]

Jacob Side, on 17 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Example of 30-06 bullet velocity


150 gr (10 g) Nosler Ballistic Tip 2,910 ft/s (890 m/s)
165 gr (11 g) BTSP 2,800 ft/s (850 m/s)
180 gr (12 g) Core-Lokt Soft Point 2,700 ft/s (820 m/s)
200 gr (13 g) Partition 2,569 ft/s (783 m/s)
220 gr (14 g) RN 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s)


So tell us again why they shouldn't buff projectile speed?

UrsusMorologus, on 17 October 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

This is supposed to be an off-the-shelf weapon using basic ammo, so the munition should perform exactly the same for all of them.

[El Bandito]

I am also against increased projectile speed. Especially on Clan Targeting Computer.

[Jacob Side]

And I just gave you a real world example of off the shelf gun and ammo that have different velocities depending on the off the shelf ammo you put into the gun.

Let's say I hunt deer using 165 grain this week and next week I go hunt elk using the 220 grain I have to adjust my point of aim do to the velocity and drop of the heavier bullet.

Same thing with our pretend bullets. Hunchback shoot a heavier slug out of the same make & model AC20 that a Yang shoots out of. Just different "grains"

Edited by Jacob Side, 17 October 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Jacob Side]

I'll agree that a targeting computer in no way should speed up the projectile speed.

[Mad Porthos]

Beyond the amount and power of the gunpowder propelling the projectile, something that very much can effect the range of a projectile is the barrel length and rifling. As you can see from many mechs, barrels range from being quite long, to practically non-existant. Very often you look at a ac5 on a shadowhawk and it is a barrel protruding out considerably from that left torso, perhaps as much as the thickness of the torso again... whereas an AC20 barrel in a hunchback is a huge hole in the overdeveloped right torso of the hunchback, without much internal barrel. Even if it does have an internal barrel going through most of the thickness of the hunchback's right torso, with the breach/firing chamber up against the back of the torso, it is still not much of a barrel. This means that the propellant of the Ac20 round has only a relatively short distance to accelerate that round to speed.

A longer barrel will allow a projectile to get more velocity and range from the same amount of propellant, at least to a point. There is an optimal length for barrels to the rounds they fire and in most cases on mechs, it looks like there are a bunch of weapons that are "snub nosed" which is why we are firing rounds which get wildly inaccurate outside of 200-300 meters at times... despite the fact that when similar sized projectiles are fired from artillery or longer barrelled weapons mounted on say... a battleship, these sized rounds hit things kilometers away.

Many of these big solid inner sphere rounds are effectively being fired out of sawed off shotguns and even the clan equivalents probably have shorter barrels than they really should, despite having burst fire of smaller projectiles, likely the barrels still are really not long enough to give the optimal ranges you might expect of large caliber cannon rounds... a trade off between keeping the barrels short and protected inside the mechs' torsos, or making them stick out and be bent, blasted and warped by incoming damage to long pointy barrels.

Edit: Just a thought inspired by the last post that came in while I was working on this initially. One way that a targetting computer could speed a projectile is if the targeting/firing computer really has control of more than just aiming a barrel. Some sorts of advanced projectile weapon designs have a concept where if you can give more of a certain chemical or oxygen to the ignition of the "gunpowder" propellent, that the resulting explosion can be even more energetic, making the round faster, possibly more accurate, with less "drop" since it has a higher arc. It's like turbocharging an engine by putting compressed air or ... is it nitrous? into the explosion. When I read about this I think something about it was called porting or venting in a ballistics article. Anyways, if that is under the control of this highly sophisticated clan computer and it is able to control some aspects of the "ignition" then it could effect the speed of the projectile and range.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 17 October 2014 - 10:21 AM.

[Scratx]

Gameplay reasons trump Reality.

Higher projectile speed generally makes it easier to hit with. This is obvious. That's why the Targeting Computer has that effect. It's not very realistic, no, but gameplay trumps that. (plus I can come up with realism-based reasons why the projectile speed could be higher. Targeting Computer isn't just several tons of electronics, it's also extra recoil-absorption and gun stabilization hardware, which hey, would allow you to use higher velocity shells with higher recoil no? )

I can come up with Reasons for allowing higher speed projectiles on mechs. I won't bother, though, because primarily it's a gameplay concern. Faster projectiles = Easier to hit = More powerful weapon.

Besides, why are you asking for projectiles not to be sped up and not asking for laser beams not to have their burn time changed? Some of the known buffs affect laser burn times. It's no different.

[UrsusMorologus]

Jacob Side, on 17 October 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

And I just gave you a real world example of off the shelf gun and ammo that have different velocities depending on the off the shelf ammo you put into the gun.

Let's say I hunt deer using 165 grain this week and next week I go hunt elk using the 220 grain I have to adjust my point of aim do to the velocity and drop of the heavier bullet.

Same thing with our pretend bullets. Hunchback shoot a heavier slug out of the same make & model AC20 that a Yang shoots out of. Just different "grains"

First of all, we dont have different ammo flavors in game yet. As such they are all the same basic ammo.

Second, your argument isn't that multiple kinds of ammo are available, its that each mech can only use a specific kind of ammo that no other kind of mech can use. Which is a non-sequitor and completely different from the argument you are framing it as.

Logical extreme: AC5 because LB5X on certain mechs, because LB5X ACs exist in the BT universe. See the problem? I hope?

Hopefully one day we will get ammo flavors and then I can buy the kind of ammo I want to use on each mech. Quirks are not that.

Scratx, on 17 October 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I can come up with Reasons for allowing higher speed projectiles on mechs. I won't bother, though, because primarily it's a gameplay concern. Faster projectiles = Easier to hit = More powerful weapon.

Easier on that mech if you only use the min-max builds and develop the reflex memory. Harder to use on every other mech that doesnt rate the buff to projectile speed, and therefore counterproductive to the intent of diversity through specialization--secondary builds with oddball speeds become LESS desirable because they are awkward to use.

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 17 October 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Tezcatli]

I think it makes mechs more unique if weapons can at times behave differently on them. They're not just a set of hard points. And you can't just go "Well my Shadowhawk can do it better with more tonnage".

I just hope they don't do this for mechs that are heavy on ballistics. The Hunchback warrants it because the AC20 is the big primary damage dealer. I don't see this being necessary on mechs that are already doing so well with their ballistics.

[EgoSlayer]

UrsusMorologus, on 17 October 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

I already told you, gave 3 solid arguments, maybe read those

Barrel length and twist have a direct effect on bullets. Even the exact same munitions. E.G. .22LR fired from a pistol vs a rifle.

There are real world examples, not that it matters because this entire game is imaginary physics.

[UrsusMorologus]

Tezcatli, on 17 October 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

I think it makes mechs more unique if weapons can at times behave differently on them.

I'm for integration buffs, make the weapon work better on that mech chassis, I do not think they should buff the bullet.

[Bhael Fire]

I'm going to pull out my NOPE card on this.

As mentioned above by Scratx, gameplay trumps everything. Fluff and realism takes the backseat to game balance.

[UrsusMorologus]

I didnt make a single claim about realism anywhere ... jeebus

[Mercules]

An AC/20 is not an AC/20. For example:

Quote

The primary weapon on the Hunchback is a Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 which can strip one and a quarter tons of armor off an enemy 'Mech in a single blow.

So the AC/20 in your hunchback is not a generic AC/20 but a Tomodzuru brand AC.

[Tezcatli]

UrsusMorologus, on 17 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm for integration buffs, make the weapon work better on that mech chassis, I do not think they should buff the bullet.

I think it needs it. A higher velocity makes for a more reliable main weapon. I don't think they should do this across the board to mechs that can field multiple ACs. But to mechs that specialize in a given weapon, it makes sense.

[Angel of Annihilation]

UrsusMorologus, on 17 October 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I like the idea of quirks improving the overall performance of specific weapons on specific mechs, but I am not a fan of changing the behavior of weapon projectiles. It is counterproductive.

If you want to say AC20 reload time is shorter because hunchback has an optimized loading racks, that is good. It provides a nice buff, a little immersion, and encourages specialization and canon loadout. But you should not have a quirk that says the projectile travels further. That is not good. This is supposed to be an off-the-shelf weapon using basic ammo, so the munition should perform exactly the same for all of them. Similar for the PPC, you should certainly buff the heat dissipation, which in turn will allow for faster fire rates, but you should not change the speed of the projectile.

Another factor is that changing the projectile behavior will be disruptive to people who switch between chassis frequently. If a PPC moves at a certain speed on all mechs but this one, then when I switch to the special one I might actually perform worse because my timing and aim is all wrong. Its actually unhelpful, potentially harmful in some cases. [Modules get around this because you can slot the module on every mech, quirk buffs are not portable.]

Another thing is that changing the projectile behavior adds a corner-case dimension to balance which will make it harder to affect broad-scale balance changes. Want a module to improve flight speed? Well you have to consider how it affects the few quirks.

Integration buffs good. Projectile buffs bad.

You have a very good point here. You can adjust skill to just about anything but if for example the PPC is much faster on one mech than another it is really going to throw off your timing.

I actually had this issue with JJs. I had spent hours in the training grounds learning how to time my jumps perfectly with various mechs, then when they changed how the JJs worked, all that time ended up wasted because I could no longer rely on the muscle memory I had developed. Honestly this sort of thing should be avoided.

[VagGR]

yeah..proj speed should be touched. not by TC not by quirks not by anything...

[stjobe]

Mercules, on 17 October 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

An AC/20 is not an AC/20. For example:
So the AC/20 in your hunchback is not a generic AC/20 but a Tomodzuru brand AC.

...which actually fires in 5-shot bursts.

I know, I know, beating a dead horse and all that - but ACs are burst-fire weaponry, "basically giant machineguns" according to the Tech Manual.

PGI actually got it right with the Clan ACs, now let's get the IS ACs on the lore train as well

Oh, as for the OP: Look at it not as a projectile speed buff (which it technically is), but as an accuracy buff.

Edited by stjobe, 17 October 2014 - 12:11 PM.