54 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

Satan n stuff, on 26 October 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

Sometimes it actually does help win the match, so indiscriminately reporting people because they're doing something you don't like would not be a good solution. Hell I've seen quite a few resource wins happen because the last guy powered down, and there is such a thing as a power down ambush, which could under the right circumstances win the match.

I can see that working in Conquest.....where one of the mission parameters is "collect X resources before the other team." If you've got all the points capped, the last guy shutting down is just coasting to victory. No big deal.

But, let's look at Skirmish. Mission: Destroy the other team before time runs out. If the last guy on one team powers down and hides, how is that attempting to "destroy the other team before time runs out?" No, it should be a reportable offense on Skirmish maps.

What about Assault? Destroy the other team OR cap their base. If the last guy on a team powers down outside of the other team's base, then he's neither attempting to destroy the other team or trying to capture the base. Again, should be a reportable offense.....ESPECIALLY in the solo queue.

In the solo queue, it's all about the cbill grind. Powering down slows down the grind and effects the overall cbills per hour. If you want to troll everyone and power down for 8 minutes, get together with a friend to record it and do it in the group queue. They appear to appreciate that sort of behavior......hell, they're doing it a lot in the solo queue this weekend.

As for the whole "power down ambush"....dude, in the solo queue, 95% of the people that power down are ECM lights running about trying to be elite CoD snipers. You know, the Raven/Spider/Kitfox with ERLLs/ERPPCs that runs away from the team, hides, then does as much damage to his teammates as the enemy....and then ends up being the only one alive and making fun of the "noobs" on his team for letting him down....what's he going to do against a pack of "kill Forrest Gump" guys looking for him?

Edited by Willard Phule, 26 October 2014 - 05:13 AM.

[Kiiyor]

Satan n stuff, on 26 October 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

Sometimes it actually does help win the match, so indiscriminately reporting people because they're doing something you don't like would not be a good solution. Hell I've seen quite a few resource wins happen because the last guy powered down, and there is such a thing as a power down ambush, which could under the right circumstances win the match.

Hmmm, you speak some sen-wait a minute. Heh, I know your angle, Mr Prince of Darkness. Oh you!

We're not talking about tactical shutdowns. We're talking about KDR (MAH PRECIOUS RATIO) or douche (beat ME, huh? Let's see how you like watching a clock run down) shutdowns.

[SweetJackal]

Thought I posted this here but instead it was dropped in another thread on the same subject. So don't mind the repost as it is relevant to the topic but not every sentence applies here.

SuckyJack, on 25 October 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

In terms of FF I think Planetside 2 did the solution pretty well. A really harsh beep for every single tick of damage done to a friendly and having the crosshair change to a:


What you need to remember is that FF isn't just the fault of the person firing in all cases. In many cases the person taking the FF is partly at fault for running into the fire line when the ally is currently shooting or standing in the way of incoming LRMs. Punishing raw team damage isn't a good idea as it also opens opportunities for griefing.

Also to note is that this will really help in those buggy cases where teammates don't show up as teammates. Being told by the game "You are shooting a friendly" the moment it is happening is 100% more useful than the game telling you "Hey dude, you did X amount of team damage" at the end of a match.

[Satan n stuff]

Willard Phule, on 26 October 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

I can see that working in Conquest.....where one of the mission parameters is "collect X resources before the other team." If you've got all the points capped, the last guy shutting down is just coasting to victory. No big deal.

But, let's look at Skirmish. Mission: Destroy the other team before time runs out. If the last guy on one team powers down and hides, how is that attempting to "destroy the other team before time runs out?" No, it should be a reportable offense on Skirmish maps.

What about Assault? Destroy the other team OR cap their base. If the last guy on a team powers down outside of the other team's base, then he's neither attempting to destroy the other team or trying to capture the base. Again, should be a reportable offense.....ESPECIALLY in the solo queue.

In the solo queue, it's all about the cbill grind. Powering down slows down the grind and effects the overall cbills per hour. If you want to troll everyone and power down for 8 minutes, get together with a friend to record it and do it in the group queue. They appear to appreciate that sort of behavior......hell, they're doing it a lot in the solo queue this weekend.

As for the whole "power down ambush"....dude, in the solo queue, 95% of the people that power down are ECM lights running about trying to be elite CoD snipers. You know, the Raven/Spider/Kitfox with ERLLs/ERPPCs that runs away from the team, hides, then does as much damage to his teammates as the enemy....and then ends up being the only one alive and making fun of the "noobs" on his team for letting him down....what's he going to do against a pack of "kill Forrest Gump" guys looking for him?

1 on 2 or 3 finishes happen too, and successfully ambushing one enemy in that situation could be what wins the match. As for the whole preserving KDR thing, just give the number obsessed stat whores an option to surrender, put it to a vote to prevent abuse and let them keep their precious KDR. Nobody cares what their stats are anyway and if you've already lost you don't care how the match ends, just that it does.

Kiiyor, on 26 October 2014 - 05:11 AM, said:

Hmmm, you speak some sen-wait a minute. Heh, I know your angle, Mr Prince of Darkness. Oh you!

We're not talking about tactical shutdowns. We're talking about KDR (MAH PRECIOUS RATIO) or douche (beat ME, huh? Let's see how you like watching a clock run down) shutdowns.

Oh that's easy, I don't like it, but I don't do it either. I prefer to get myself killed fast if I'm the last survivor and I can't win, usually by taking one or two down with me, but if I can still win I will keep trying even if it means hiding and shutting down.

[Krivvan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 26 October 2014 - 03:05 AM, said:

Just had a match where the other team said we had a TK on our team. Of course idiots jumped on that which started a melee at spawn ending with three dead and two damaged. Come to find out it was a bad synch and they were having fun with us. At least they were open about being scumbags.

I seriously don't understand where you find all these games that you think such synch drops are a common thing.

[White Bear 84]

MoonUnitBeta, on 22 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Team damage has always been a problem. But it’s a special treat when you haven’t moved from your spot waiting for the enemy to pop around, and a Timberwolf peeks out from behind you and then starts backing up just after unloading his large lasers at an enemy; following his last .6 seconds of his large laser alpha across your back..

An interesting post with good intentions I do believe - but what happens in those rather ridiculous situations where an over zealous player walks right in front of you just as you are firing? There are those situations where the team damage is not the fault of the player doing the damage - it seems counter to penalise players for the actions of others....

[MoonUnitBeta]

White Bear 84, on 26 October 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

An interesting post with good intentions I do believe - but what happens in those rather ridiculous situations where an over zealous player walks right in front of you just as you are firing? There are those situations where the team damage is not the fault of the player doing the damage - it seems counter to penalise players for the actions of others....

This is why there is a 30 damage threshold before you're penalized. Like a buffer zone for those kind of things.
The intent is that you want to keep team damage as low as you can, and this path gives you the chance to do just that, and for when accidents that are unavoidable there is some leeway. But if you have already dealt 30 damage, and you bonk someone that ran in front of you. You then get penalized for the damage you already did to your team.

Remember that this penalty is only limited to XP. There is no CBill penalty. I do not think we need nerfs in that regard. However, if you keep a clean slate on team damage, you can be rewarded 2,500 cbills and 100xp. (or which ever is reasonable in PGI's mind)

Satan n stuff, on 26 October 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Looks good so far, but how about collision damage? You can't always avoid people running into you and sometimes friendlies happen to be in your way but stopping or going around isn't an option, like when you're backing away from the enemy and there's someone right behind you, if you stop you die but if you don't you deal team damage.

As long as collision damage isn't penalized I'm okay with it.

No, I don't think collision damage should be penalized. It's so minimal. The only people I see that would complain would be light mechs who don't look where they are going, or are careless about it. The mechs they bump into complain (see it in a few games) but it only amounts to 1 - 2 damage I think. Something the light mech should obviously care more about.

SuckyJack, on 26 October 2014 - 05:13 AM, said:

Thought I posted this here but instead it was dropped in another thread on the same subject. So don't mind the repost as it is relevant to the topic but not every sentence applies here.

As I noted in the OP. The reticle will already change to a Blue X(I.S. UI), or a Red X (Clan UI). Do you think a cancel sign would be more effective? I actually never noticed it in Planetside 2.

As I've mentioned many times before, the 30 damage threshold before your penalized acts as a buffer for you for when people accidentally or intentionally cross your line of fire. Sometimes it is unavoidable, and that is there to protect you from things like that. I don't see grieving in this regard a real issue because, if I dare say it, since the penalty is so low you could theoretically continue to shoot through the person who stood in your way and still get away with it with less than 100 damage penalty (depending on their armor). I know some people might get the mentality "Hey! It's penalized, so I can get off the hook and not worry about getting killed.", but since the penalty is so low, I'm guessing people will still think twice about getting in the way of those who don't mind sacrificing a small amount of experience.

You make a good point that a reticle change for team damage can prevent a serious amount of damage to a team member in the event someone loses a blue dorrito. I originally had that in my OP actually, but later removed it because I rambled about it. Glad we think alike .
As others have mentioned, a jarring "EHH" sound (like when trying to fire streaks without a lock), a 'tic' per point of damage, or some kind of audible event can help as well. Most people are focusing on the mech their aiming at and not their reticles. I know I don't look at my reticle, I just "know" where it is and I see past it, so sometimes a HUD change doesn't always do the trick.
But I think in terms of team damage, and how serious it can be (such as creating a small scale civil war on a team), a HUD and sound effect combination further drives the "STOP THAT! BAD!" point home.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 26 October 2014 - 07:38 PM.

[Prezimonto]

Monkey Lover, on 22 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

I think -1xp is a good idea but more than a punishment i would see it as a way to improve. Sound effects for team hits would also be nice as i think it would help a lot of the new people.

I'd love a bitchin' betty, or faux voice chatter about watching your fire.

[White Bear 84]

MoonUnitBeta, on 26 October 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

This is why there is a 30 damage threshold before you're penalized. Like a buffer zone for those kind of things.
The intent is that you want to keep team damage as low as you can, and this path gives you the chance to do just that, and for when accidents that are unavoidable there is some leeway. But if you have already dealt 30 damage, and you bonk someone that ran in front of you. You then get penalized for the damage you already did to your team.

Remember that this penalty is only limited to XP. There is no CBill penalty. I do not think we need nerfs in that regard. However, if you keep a clean slate on team damage, you can be rewarded 2,500 cbills and 100xp. (or which ever is reasonable in PGI's mind)

Ok, I might have skimmed the post and missed that, so thanks for the additional info

[Brody319]

Willard Phule, on 26 October 2014 - 05:08 AM, said:

I can see that working in Conquest.....where one of the mission parameters is "collect X resources before the other team." If you've got all the points capped, the last guy shutting down is just coasting to victory. No big deal.

But, let's look at Skirmish. Mission: Destroy the other team before time runs out. If the last guy on one team powers down and hides, how is that attempting to "destroy the other team before time runs out?" No, it should be a reportable offense on Skirmish maps.

What about Assault? Destroy the other team OR cap their base. If the last guy on a team powers down outside of the other team's base, then he's neither attempting to destroy the other team or trying to capture the base. Again, should be a reportable offense.....ESPECIALLY in the solo queue.

In the solo queue, it's all about the cbill grind. Powering down slows down the grind and effects the overall cbills per hour. If you want to troll everyone and power down for 8 minutes, get together with a friend to record it and do it in the group queue. They appear to appreciate that sort of behavior......hell, they're doing it a lot in the solo queue this weekend.

As for the whole "power down ambush"....dude, in the solo queue, 95% of the people that power down are ECM lights running about trying to be elite CoD snipers. You know, the Raven/Spider/Kitfox with ERLLs/ERPPCs that runs away from the team, hides, then does as much damage to his teammates as the enemy....and then ends up being the only one alive and making fun of the "noobs" on his team for letting him down....what's he going to do against a pack of "kill Forrest Gump" guys looking for him?

I've said this could be solved easily. If the gamemode doesn't have a cappable base, then what ever square the last mech is on should blink red. So if they are hiding in a gap in B3 powered down, your team could still find them but it also allows them some places to hide. In a 1v1 scenario it would help both players easily find the other and finish the match.

[Zoid]

We need more penalties for TAKING friendly fire. These challenges really bring out the worst, I'll have some Clan ERLL firing at an enemy and a friendly walks right through them trying to steal the kill. You can't honestly tell me it's my fault that he's taking damage when he's walking through a 1.3 second laser beam.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Zoid, on 26 October 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

We need more penalties for TAKING friendly fire. These challenges really bring out the worst, I'll have some Clan ERLL firing at an enemy and a friendly walks right through them trying to steal the kill. You can't honestly tell me it's my fault that he's taking damage when he's walking through a 1.3 second laser beam.

You are able to steer your weapons away from him so the 1.3 seconds turns into 0.3 seconds. Or if he doesn't care about his behind, don't move your lasers.

But like I've mentioned, this penalty is a small one. If you want to keep your lasers on his back for the full duration you can do so if you don't care about the XP. And as I've mentioned already on numerous occasions, there is a 30 point damage buffer that ensures accidents like this don't immediately penalize you.

Furthermore, I do not have a clue how you would be able to effectively define that the person who moved into line of fire is at fault. I mean, without any definition in code to say that he is at fault, I could just turn around at alpha someones leg at the start of the match, and you're telling me that they're the one to lose a bunch of XP, AND a leg? You KNOW that the forums would go ablaze. Literally. The text for the thread titles will be made of nothing but smoking white-hot forged iron that stamps PGI on the forehead, and the replies will be oozing lava and vitriol.


EDIT
I've given this more thought. And the only circumstance that could merit the victim as an offender for entering your line of fire is:
1) You're not moving.
2) You're zoomed in.
3) You have the target in your line of sight, and it is targeted.
4) Your mouse is motionless.
5) He's targeting the same target.
6) He moves into your line of fire at the same time you fired.

That is a VERY specific event. But it has to be. Otherwise, people can cheat the system. And it might even have to be more specific yet.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 26 October 2014 - 08:45 PM.

[Mycrus]

Elizander, on 22 October 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes, deny a kill.

I do this to max my damage potential and possibly get a kill while getting overwhelmed by enemy fire... nothing wrong there

[Zoid]

MoonUnitBeta, on 26 October 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

You are able to steer your weapons away from him so the 1.3 seconds turns into 0.3 seconds. Or if he doesn't care about his behind, don't move your lasers.

But like I've mentioned, this penalty is a small one. If you want to keep your lasers on his back for the full duration you can do so if you don't care about the XP. And as I've mentioned already on numerous occasions, there is a 30 point damage buffer that ensures accidents like this don't immediately penalize you.

Furthermore, I do not have a clue how you would be able to effectively define that the person who moved into line of fire is at fault. I mean, without any definition in code to say that he is at fault, I could just turn around at alpha someones leg at the start of the match, and you're telling me that they're the one to lose a bunch of XP, AND a leg? You KNOW that the forums would go ablaze. Literally. The text for the thread titles will be made of nothing but smoking white-hot forged iron that stamps PGI on the forehead, and the replies will be oozing lava and vitriol.


EDIT
I've given this more thought. And the only circumstance that could merit the victim as an offender for entering your line of fire is:
1) You're not moving.
2) You're zoomed in.
3) You have the target in your line of sight, and it is targeted.
4) Your mouse is motionless.
5) He's targeting the same target.
6) He moves into your line of fire at the same time you fired.

That is a VERY specific event. But it has to be. Otherwise, people can cheat the system. And it might even have to be more specific yet.

This is a silly example. Griefers are gonna grief; if someone is blowing your leg off at the start of a match he's going to do it regardless of how many C-bills or XP it costs you. In general, people aren't going to just walk in front of friendly 'mechs in order to cost them end-of-match rewards, nor are they going to fire at friendly 'mechs for the same reason. Yes I can move my lasers and I do, but that doesn't change the simple fact that he saw me firing at the target and walked in front because he wanted that 1337 KDR. In the challenge where you just had to score 120 point matches it was absolutely awful, people would walk right in between Dakkawolves and their targets to fire 2 medium lasers in the hopes of scoring a KB.

I'm basically saying I'd like to see a "selfish idiot" penalty. You're hurting your team tremendously by stepping in front of an Assault 'mech who is unloading just so you can count the kill and it happens all the time.

EDIT:
Really my point is simply that it's been my experience that friendly fire damage is more often the fault of the person taking the damage than the person dealing it. The simple fact that it's a much bigger issue during these challenges should tell you that (since kills aren't as important normally).

Edited by Zoid, 27 October 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Zoid, on 27 October 2014 - 06:37 AM, said:

This is a silly example. Griefers are gonna grief; if someone is blowing your leg off at the start of a match he's going to do it regardless of how many C-bills or XP it costs you. In general, people aren't going to just walk in front of friendly 'mechs in order to cost them end-of-match rewards, nor are they going to fire at friendly 'mechs for the same reason. Yes I can move my lasers and I do, but that doesn't change the simple fact that he saw me firing at the target and walked in front because he wanted that 1337 KDR. In the challenge where you just had to score 120 point matches it was absolutely awful, people would walk right in between Dakkawolves and their targets to fire 2 medium lasers in the hopes of scoring a KB.

I'm basically saying I'd like to see a "selfish idiot" penalty. You're hurting your team tremendously by stepping in front of an Assault 'mech who is unloading just so you can count the kill and it happens all the time.

EDIT:
Really my point is simply that it's been my experience that friendly fire damage is more often the fault of the person taking the damage than the person dealing it. The simple fact that it's a much bigger issue during these challenges should tell you that (since kills aren't as important normally).

It’s a silly example because you misunderstood it – What I do to you is irrelevant, if I shoot you at the start of the match do you think you should lose XP for that? No. That’s absurd and that is my point – in a justifiable way, how are you going to define when you are at fault and needed to get penalized for standing in my line of fire?

Thus, I gave you a few requirements that must be met before someone can be penalized as such. If I’m a griever and like to shoot your legs off, you bet I’ll do it anyways, but I’ll also do it to everyone who I don’t agree with and rack up penalties on their expense. If people they get penalized for something they didn’t do, you know they’ll be on the forums just as you are.

So I while it’s easy to say “This person should be penalized for X”, it’s a lot harder to actually think about how it can work in MWO.
With that said though, I feel confident that we’ve come up with a good amount of rules to protect players from accidental crossfire, protect teammates from lazy and hostile team behaviour, and encourage friendlier co-operative play for new players, and we’ve set in place a reward that should be easily, realistically, and reasonably obtainable.

Edit: I just saw you added more. If that is simply your point, then I still would atleast like to see more suggestion put into your request. I'd like to know what you think makes players eligable for a penalty, think game-terms. It needs to be definable.
Part of the issue is that PGI has kills included in the tourny score. I am hoping, that they will be able to utilize the role-warfare rewards, such as half the points for a kill, and reward the other half to the person who received the "Kill With The Most Damage" person.
I think that's a good place to start.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 27 October 2014 - 08:03 AM.