68 replies to this topic

[Alaskan Nobody]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

and people thought they were as useful as gold.

No - just far more useful that MOAR LAZOREZ on the Black Knight

Nice straw man argument there though

[Scout Derek]

FIRE THE LAZOR!!!!

[Gas Guzzler]

Alistair Winter, on 22 October 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

Grasshopper... I think the 5J is the winner, actually. I don't think you can make use of 8 energy hardpoints with ghost heat. And 2AMS and the XL365 engine sounds like a lot of fun. 90 kph, jump jets... my cup of tea.

6 MLs, plus 2 LL/ERLLs, #makinguseof8energyhardpointswithoutghostheat

Honestly though I am interested in trying a build with 4/5/MPLs and 2/LPLs. A fast Wubhopper could be very fun.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 October 2014 - 08:31 AM.

[Deathlike]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

No - just far more useful that MOAR LAZOREZ on the Black Knight

Nice straw man argument there though

Actually, more lasers on the BK would be more useful than the solo missile hardpoint on the head.

People were trying to justify how much a solo SRM4/LRM5/SSRM2 in the heat was more useful for whatever reason. At least I could understand the NARC argument (like the hero Spider)...

I ran MOAR LAZORS on the Thunderbolts-5SS all day long, and it's not even a good mech (couldn't really shield, or maximize the torso pitch due to an odd cockpit location). It did alright, but nothing I'd want to keep long term.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Actually, more lasers on the BK would be more useful than the solo missile hardpoint on the head.

Debatable - but that is the point, is it not?

[Pale Jackal]

Yeah I was hoping PGI would fudge one Grasshopper variant and give them more than a single slot of missile potential.

These 'mechs are definitely crying out for quirks.

[Deathlike]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Debatable - but that is the point, is it not?

Well, let's look at it in detail...

Is there a point to running a solo SSRM2, when you will probably need BAP to counter ECM? Anything decent that uses Streaks has at least 2 running, generally with BAP. This is part of the solo missile hardpoint problem that exists in this game.

When we look at the LRM5, it gets eaten up by AMS easily. Of course, if you like wanting people to run into cover because of missiles (Radar Deprivation being one of the best mech modules in the game, if not THE module at the moment)... then more power to you?

Let's ignore SRM2s, because... SRM2s. SRM4 could have some measurable impact... but we're talking about the same/similar issue with the LRM5... you got to commit at least 3 tons, for a weapon that has limited range. This isn't like the Jenner-K where we have more options. For The 3 tons (2 crits) you are essentially consuming for a mech, that is going to depend on very hot loadout for 90% of the time spent in it, this could be used for more DHS, which is critical for keeping nominal uptime for the mech.

A related example is the recent release of the Stormcrow. The Stormcrow-Prime is pretty solid... unaltered for the most part. 22DHS is pretty necessary for 2 CERLL+3CERMED. When it comes to heat, you need all the DHS you can get.

The Grasshopper needs all the help it can get. Removing what amounts to 3 tons of missile weaponry and substituting with more DHS (and possibly engine expansion due to free tonnage, and indirectly gaining more DHS space as a result) is a more practical proposition, than just adding "one more weapon in".

[Alaskan Nobody]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Well, let's look at it in detail...

Fact

Laser boats run hot

Fact

Missile launchers run cooler

Fact

Sometimes having a lower heat weapon to fire as you cool down is more useful

Fact

Sometimes having MOAR LAZORZ is more useful

Fact

You have given absolutely no points that have not been given before

Fact

Neither have I

Fact

We will not know for sure until we see BOTH in action

Fact

You have been unwilling to even CONSIDER the above fact

Fact

What opinions you have you have shown to be unchangeable

As usual

Fact

You are not now

Nor ever have been

Worth talking to about it

Fact

I have now repeatedly wasted my time trying

[Alistair Winter]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 October 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

6 MLs, plus 2 LL/ERLLs, #makinguseof8energyhardpointswithoutghostheat

Already talked about this build above. 3 hot 5 me. #hashtag

Gas Guzzler, on 23 October 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

Honestly though I am interested in trying a build with 4/5/MPLs and 2/LPLs. A fast Wubhopper could be very fun.

Definitely not a build for me either. Far too hot. For it to be effective, you'd basically have to avoid prolonged engagements at all cost, and just do constant hit and run attacks. In a heavy mech. That wouldn't work for me.

I'm sure the sound would be lovely though

[Deathlike]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

I have now repeatedly wasted my time trying

Well, it would be better if you didn't troll outright.

CTF-1X

Under your scenario, you could probably fit 1 JJ (1 ton, 1 crit) and the LRM5/SRM4 + 1 ton of ammo while upgrading the engine slightly to 305. This is based on the Grasshopper-5H's loadout.

That doesn't seem special but it is what it is.

Going full energy however...

CTF-1X

What you end up doing is just increasing the engine cap, and can add 2 JJs if you can shave off .5 tons from the armor.

So, while I guess the net change is minimal (it literally is minimal), you could have your cake and eat it too.

There isn't going to be too much diversity in builds though based on the prelabbing.

[ShinobiHunter]

Mcgral18, on 22 October 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

They don't have enough of a benefit. They are hotter, shorter ranged, hardly do any more damage. They also weight twice as much for SPLs and MPLs.

They have a single noticeable benefit, that simply isn't enough. cMPLs are rather garbage, since they have identical heat to ERMLs.

I thought you liked IS pulse lasers?

[Deathlike]

ShinobiHunter, on 23 October 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

I thought you liked IS pulse lasers?

The sounds make him tingly all over.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

Missile launchers run cooler

Im gonna stop you right there, as this debunks two of your facts (since one is dependent on the other).
An SRM4 has the same HPS as a Medium Laser, the only reason missile boats run cooler is because you can boat more lasers which translates to a hotter build.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 23 October 2014 - 01:30 PM.

[Mcgral18]

ShinobiHunter, on 23 October 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

I thought you liked IS pulse lasers?

I like them, and use them, but I could never call them good.

They are a fun weapon, not a good weapon.

[ShinobiHunter]

Mcgral18, on 23 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

I like them, and use them, but I could never call them good.

They are a fun weapon, not a good weapon.

Fair enough.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Deathlike, on 23 October 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well, it would be better if you didn't troll outright.

It would be FAR better if you didn't ASSume people who disagreed with you were trolling

But then - I guess then you wouldn't be YOU

Would you?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Edit:

Nevermind - like above.

Except you have finally "convinced"* me you are "right"*

All decisions on how good these mechs will be has already been decided.

NOTHING can change that

Not Hitboxes

Not Quirks

ABSOLUTELY no way the Grasshopper will EVER be even POTENTIALLY competitive

Even on it's own

Let alone compared to the OH SO AMAZING Black Knight

*NOT.

Jackasses

And before you call me a troll again, consider just how one sided your arguments have been

"The BK is better BECAUSE MOAR LAZORZ"

"The GHopper is worse BECAUSE 1 Missile HP and JJ are not worth LESS LAZORZ"

See?

You have taught me to Straw Man JUST as good as you have!

Edited by Shar Wolf, 23 October 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[Deathlike]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

It would be FAR better if you didn't ASSume people who disagreed with you were trolling

But then - I guess then you wouldn't be YOU

Would you?

I would say the same thing with your first response to me, ASSUMING I used a straw man argument... which I did not. People have actually SAID THIS in that very thread about the vote and other pro-Grasshopper related posts.

I'm only debating the issues surrounding it, w/o calling people names and trying to insinuate anything. I said exactly what I meant, w/o trying to stir up anything. If you want to read it something other than what was there, I don't know what to tell you.

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Edit:

Nevermind - like above.

Except you have finally "convinced"* me you are "right"*

All decisions on how good these mechs will be has already been decided.

NOTHING can change that

Not Hitboxes

Not Quirks

ABSOLUTELY no way the Grasshopper will EVER be even POTENTIALLY competitive

Even on it's own

Let alone compared to the OH SO AMAZING Black Knight

*NOT.

Jackasses

For the record, I said ZERO about competitiveness, quirks and anything of the sort. Why are you trying to stuff words in my mouth? The only thing that I've really said about the Grasshopper is that like the rest of the pack... on paper, it doesn't seem to be that interesting. Also, going by the picture (outside of it being scaled too tall or wide), it will have low firing points, similar the the Firestarter... making it a poor hill humper compared to the Cataphract.

Quote

And before you call me a troll again, consider just how one sided your arguments have been

"The BK is better BECAUSE MOAR LAZORZ"

"The GHopper is worse BECAUSE 1 Missile HP and JJ are not worth LESS LAZORZ"

See?

You have taught me to Straw Man JUST as good as you have!

I even did you the favor of building a "version" of your proposed mech, just to point out how I didn't have a problem with your contention, yet you spit at the pro-missile head argument I built for you? OK then. Why I do even bother trying give you a courteous response?

I don't even know why you go off on people at random when what amounts to "innocuous" remarks are made.

My contention has always been that more energy is more productive. While it isn't perfect obviously due to heat, when you goto a missile solution, you have to consider ECM. Reducing the probability of locks doesn't help. (Is it even worth committing one med laser for TAG just for that LRM5?) If you go the SRM route, how often do you think you'll fire that? This isn't like running the Jenner-K, where a good pilot would be able to dump at least a ton's worth of ammo. Adding more medium lasers is a lot more practical regardless of either situation.

In any case... whatever. If you want a discussion, you don't have to call things out that are not there to make a scene.

[Mcgral18]

Shar Wolf, on 23 October 2014 - 03:04 PM, said:

Edit:

Nevermind - like above.

Except you have finally "convinced"* me you are "right"*

All decisions on how good these mechs will be has already been decided.

NOTHING can change that

Not Hitboxes

Not Quirks

ABSOLUTELY no way the Grasshopper will EVER be even POTENTIALLY competitive

Even on it's own

Let alone compared to the OH SO AMAZING Black Knight

*NOT.

Jackasses

And before you call me a troll again, consider just how one sided your arguments have been

"The BK is better BECAUSE MOAR LAZORZ"

"The GHopper is worse BECAUSE 1 Missile HP and JJ are not worth LESS LAZORZ"

See?

You have taught me to Straw Man JUST as good as you have!

[Malcolm Vordermark]

So when it comes down to it the Grasshopper is a laser boat with jump jets and the Black Knight is a laser boat with 5 more tons. I don't think the extra LRM5 or SRM4 makes a difference.

Now, what I would like to know, are IS laser boats any good right now? I haven't touched IS since the Clans arrived and they were pretty lack luster back then.