57 replies to this topic

[Badgerthej]

ok clanners listen up.

I know for a fact you're all gonna go UUUUGH what a whiney git he's just a noob and doesnt understand.

well i do understand all too well, and before anyone else wants to kick my nuts I spent a little time cooling off before typing this.

here we go, your guns are broken, your equipment is broken your mechs are broken. In fact the only thing you got right was that autocannons should have always been burst fire, even for Inner sphere mechs.

allow me to point out why your things are just too potent:

1 - xl-engines that require both sides to kill you....and they take up less slots..
2 - all your guns weigh less and take up less slots.
3 - almost all of your guns have extended ranges and damages.
4 - you dont care about variants you can fit any pod to any mech

I have specifically left out cheese-building because human nature leads to powerplayers and dodgy hitboxes because there will always be some issues.

now i will admit you dont have the equipment freedom that IS do but thats one downside, you have slow lights, but i've never seen that actually showing itself as a problem, your lasers take a fraction of a second longer to do full damage....not a problem your lasers do more damage anyway leading that your lasers do the same damage for beam on time that IS lasers do.

please i send this out to see what replies, suggestions, arguments and blatant trolling i will recieve, and I leave you with this.

I am a little voice in a sea of shouting, but clan is OP it always was and always will be from tabletop to videogames.

[Mcgral18]

I was debating on making an argument to ignore the two good Clam mechs and base the balance on the remaining 7...but I think I'll just do this:

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 October 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[Badgerthej]

first childish post prize goes to you, though i would have actually like to see a real argument instead of this.

[Scratx]

OP, there's been lots of arguments around, and we don't really feel like reenacting them, especially since the Inner Sphere mechs are about to get an overall boost that nobody knows how exactly it will shake up ISvClan balance.

Also, you earn a prize for not stating any of the cons, besides restricted building rules and AC burst fire, that affect clan mechs. *claps*

I apologize if I am wrong about not expecting an unbiased discussion from you.

[Mcgral18]

Badgerthej, on 25 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

first childish post prize goes to you, though i would have actually like to see a real argument instead of this.

Tell us what is fearsome about the Nova, with bad hitboxes and weapons that are too hot to boat.

The Adder, commonly referred to as the Badder, since it lacks hardpoints, low mounted arms, rather large hitboxes for it's size.

Kit Fox, which is nearly twice the size of the Spider, being the same weight.

Warhawk, which lacks crit slots due to 20 hardwired DHS, but while it cannot boat dakka very well, it can occasionally make use of those heatsinks, even with slightly limited hardpoints.


The Clams have two good mechs. Those are the ones that are most often complained about, with the Dire Wolf close behind. That one actually has a downside; it's a Whale.

The weapons have been nerfed a fair bit; I'm confident in taking just about any of them with a comparable IS mech. DoomCrow and TimberGod being the ones that are actually iffy, because those are good mechs; they don't have the downsides many of the other Clam mechs have.


Is that good for an argument? Don't only look at the two good mechs when analyzing the Clans. Those blanket nerfs hurt the bad mechs much more than the good ones.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 October 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[LauLiao]

I was playing Alien: Isolation the other day, and it was completely rediculous! Those Aliens were totally OP compared to humans!

1 - You move faster than humans
2 - You have those wicked tails and claws that can tear stuff up
3 - ACID BLOOD! How are we supposed to compete with that?
4 - You have two sets of jaws. TWO!

I demand Xenomorphs be replaced by pink, squishy human beings, or failing that, fluffy bunnies.

I know I'm gonna get criticized for this, but Aliens are OP and always have been.

[Wintersdark]

He made a real argument. There are, well, 3 good clam mechs. 3.

IS mechs, on the other hand, have massive bonuses coming. Really major ones. Like -25% heat, 25% cooldown reduction, 25% range.

HBK 4G's will be dropping 20 point AC20 shells at ~330m every 2.9 seconds.

You don't get to whine about balance until you see how that pans out.

Mcgral's point is that while there are a couple very strong clan mechs, most of the rest range from poor to mediocre, and this will continue with future mechs.

Sure, their gear is smaller and lighter... but for mechs with fixed (or fixed absent) Endo Steel, Ferro Fiberous? Fixed jump jets, etc? These aren't "minor customization restrictions", they are huge. Clan mechs without ES/FF, for example, are flat out weak compared to IS mechs for having lost a substantial tonnage right there. Look at the Summoner: It's mandatory JJ's plus no ES/FF means it's down over 10 tons compared to a comparable IS mech right out of the gate.

I suspect after the IS quirk pass, Timberwolves, Stormcrows and Direwolves will still be competitive mechs, and the rest will be a complete joke.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Maybe if PGI wouldn't listen to the whingers on this forum and BUFF the bad IS chassis to be on par with the good IS chassis, then maybe PGI wouldn't have needed to try and roll back all the nerfs to the good IS chassis.

But no, don't listen to us players that have been asking for something like this quirk system for nearly 2 years now.

No, just keep whining and get every mech in the game nerfed down to be on par with the shittiest of **** chassis that no one plays because it's a hot piece of ****. No, nerf EVERYTHING to be bad instead of buffing the bads to be goods.

#thiscommunityneverlearns

[NovaFury]

Clan mechs are really strong, it's true. They've been really strong long before MWO existed, and it's a mistake to roll clan mechs agaisnt IS mechs in the same arena of combat. It's really two different tech eras.

But maps are small, and heat scale unforgiving and calculated the same across factions. Everyone has the same armor max per tonnage and once you get within 270 meters, everyone is riding their heat scale, and the fact that say, IS medium lasers are 5 for 4 instead of 7 for 6, means they're 8% more efficient and more accurate to boot. Even though IS SRMS weigh twice as much, they're 7% more damage to heat efficient. For all their weapons, you really are hitting harder than them once things get stuck in.

Sounds small, right? It is, and I do find my clan mechs tend to get higher scores. Still doesn't stop me from maintaining a positive KDR in the better IS chassis. The main clan imbalance comes from timidity among PUGs forcing longrange combat agaisnt mechs that specialize at longrange combat. It's an advantage, I won't deny it, but it's not insurmountable.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 11:24 AM.

[Moonlander]

After the quirk pass, we'll see Clanner's saying "IS OP PLZ NERF" threads daily. Just be patient.

[Wine O]

Clan mechs are better period. That's why I play them. IS needs some love unless the idea is for clans to have the 2 5star lances vs 3 4man IS lances come CW. Not sure how that will pan out though.

[The Boz]

So, OP says that Clan *equipment* is overpowered compared to IS equipment, and your reply is that certain Clan mechs aren't as OP when compared to the best the IS has to offer?
What kind of logic is that?

[Badgerthej]

first of all scratx, I have only used the nova trial mech so I am unable to fully understand any cons, other than having 12 lasers producing an enormous amount of heat...guess what, good heat management and battle pacing allowed me to regularly put out over 200 damage in about a minutes worth of firing before i got nuked by combined fire.

now that this is possibly becoming a reasonable argument I shall now take into account this information that you are giving me Mcgral18.

hitboxes - lets actually dive into this since you open up with the nova.
as mentioned before I have piloted the nova, and i've been able to shrug off an enormous amount of fire before succumbing to the damage, being a dragon pilot primarily has probably given me a good habit of damage spreading. the nova has big gangly arms that absorb alot of firepower keeping most of the mech nice and unharmed.

the adder, short and blocky and actually quite tough, recent games have shown me that they can take a good few ac20 rounds and spread that over their little carapace quite easily, low slung arms are an issue i'll admit but that just means you need to work on positioning.

the summoner. I actually dread comming up against this box of hurt, and duelling them usually ends with my death. they have the same horrible hitbox as the shadowhawk making their sides and CT's difficult to judge in a fight, CT shots are extremely difficult if they actually maneuver. I see more summoners missing legs than i do missing arms/side torso's.

now, we'll move on. kItfox, yes its a little larger than ths spider, a jenners larger than a spider so is the firestarter, every mech has its sizes....but only that one fits 3 ams and ecm and is more than capable of loading much more firepower than a spider even if it travels slower than it.

warhawk - yes it has 20 double heatsinks locked to its form......why is that an issue? it runs at 70kph and has the ability to be fitted with an ungodly amount of missiles with a good stock of ammunition to boot.

speaking of missiles......damage below 180 and an unreasonable lock on speed, almost twice as fast as an IS mech with bap, though i assume the mechs will also have bap.

the timberwolf, direwolf and stormcrow are all obvious overpowered mechs so nothing is needed to be said other than this

stormcrow - streak/srm hammerboat of death.
timberwolf - 75ton stalker with arms...and jumpjets...and double the speed.....oh also more damage output (dependent on fittings)
direwolf - more firepower than a lance really wish that shooting that bomber nose actually damaged the ct 100% of the time.

please explain to me how the weapons have been nerfed, i've heard this a few times but they act exactly the same as they always did.

[Sable Phoenix]

Clans are on average actually underpowered compared to equivalent Inner Sphere chassis (Storm, Timber and Dire being the obvious exceptions, and be honest, it's those three that are exclusively responsible for the continuing refrain of "Clans are OP!" whining), and it's only going to get worse, because PGI is obsessed with making the playing field between IS and Clan absolutely level (it never has been in any iteration of BattleTech/MechWarrior, and shouldn't be a goal now). As such, IS already outperforms Clan in nearly every category, XL engines aside. The numbers bear this out, you can find a massive thread on this board that backs it up... IS mechs do less damage overall but kill much more efficiently. The XL engine advantage and a marginal range increase for most weapons are the only real advantages that Clans currently enjoy over IS, and those will probably be plowed under by the coming IS over-buff.

There's a reason that comp teams still run mostly IS mechs. Your argument is invalid.

Edited by Sable Phoenix, 25 October 2014 - 11:40 AM.

[CocoaJin]

Mcgral18, on 25 October 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

I was debating on making an argument to ignore the two good Clam mechs and base the balance on the remaining 7...but I think I'll just do this:

Mmmm, I bet she smells like cherries and denture cream.

[Badgerthej]

I actually have more trouble with the summoner than the crow/timber, everyone has issues with the direwhale because of the cheese.

as for quirks of IS mechs and your 2.9 second ac20 at 330m range, winterdark, have you seen the module slots that improve both range and cooldown of weapons, yeah i can get my hunchie almost at that state now, but I just dont have the c-bills for the mods.

[NovaFury]

While the Nova is mainly bad in comparison to other clan mechs, the skinny is that it's sluggish. At 81kph base, it has the same maximum speed as the Timberwolf, which can also jump, and both have the same torso pitch and yaw, with the Nova winning in torso maximum yaw by a mere 12 degrees. It's essentially not possible for a Nova to outmaneuver, outturn, outjump, or outrun a Timberwolf despite being 25 tons lighter. It has neither Endo Steel nor Ferro Fibrous, largely mitigating the decreased weight of clan weapons, of which medium lasers still weigh one ton anyway and let's be honest, the Nova won't mount anything else of consequence.

It's got a squat profile with large arms, but unlike the arms on the Centurion or Shadowhawk, the arms of the Nova actually carry your weapons. You can shield-side semi-effectively with the exception of your legs, which are large and tend to eat LRM fire that would otherwise miss you if you mech were taller and drew the missiles in a slightly higher arc towards its torso. In this way, you can shield-side and protect your torso but lose your legs, which defeats the purpose. Doing this gives up half your firepower regardless of if the trade turns out to be equitable or not.

The Prime variant stock is wildly overgunned and under-sinked, with an impressive alpha (that you can't use, you will overheat, shutdown, and emulate sleeping beauty if you try to fire both arms or accidently stagger too quickly) but a sustained DPS of 3.36 and not a whole lot of better builds. You can't really fix this because external heatsinks are 1.4 and not truedubs, so pulling weapons off for extra heatsinks helps, but not as much as you'd expect. For comparison, the common CN9-AH build with AC20 and 3xSRM4 with an XL275 runs a DPS of around 5.9-6.1, and absolutely trounces the Nova in a brawl. Bonus points because it can both keep pace (they move the same speed) and has roughly the same maneuverability.

If you get closed up, you have one chance to alpha a location that isn't the shield arm, and if you don't core the side torso immediately (good luck, you have clan laser burn time) you die. ... I love my centurion.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Big arms on the Nova is bad; that's where 90% of your firepower is. Because of that, you can only really use 6 of those 12 hardpoints and sword and board. Low mounted and gigantic, bad place to have weapons.
Nova is very large for a 50 tonner, and very wide.

Adder can have 4 weapons; it seems SRM boats are the most effective. It's not the best 35 tonner; aside from missile boating it's generally worse than the oversized 30 tonner.

Summoner has, again, very low amounts of hardpoints. 6 being the highest, although it doesn't have the tonnage to effectively use the ballistics as well as the others, while carrying enough ammo. It has pod space comparable to 35 tonners that aren't in the game yet. Arms soak damage better than the timby...but that can be a bad thing, loadout depending.
It also boats missiles well.

Kit Fox is 30 tons; it should not be larger than 35 tonners. The size prevents it from gaining access to areas other 30 tonners can use; such as under the ramps on HPG, or inbeween buildings on the city maps.

It's been called the PeaceDove; I don't cower in fear when I see it; it doesn't seem to mount meaningful firepower, but is nearly the same size as the 100 ton Dire Whale. Not sure how to help it.

Lock on speed for missiles is identical; at 120 M you're doing nearly no damage, less than an SLs worth with a LRM20. BAP doesn't affect lock on speed; Artemis does.


I can't call the Dire Whale OP; it's slow as balls. TimberGod and DoomCrow are certainly the best; not sure they can be called OP. Optimal, with few noticeable downsides. They do generally die. Perhaps hitbox adjustments.


Weapons have been nerfed for heat; one of the worst ways to balance weapons. They've also been touched in damage, range, duration(which affects recycle), projectile speed, but I think that's it.


cMPLs are rather garbage, for the same heat but twice the tonnage, you get 0.4 damage, 0.3 less burn time and less range.

ERMLs heat raised to 120%
cERSL heat raised to 150%, damage cut by 1, range cut by 50M,

[Brody319]

bad mechs:
Adder, Summoner, and Nova

These mechs either are out classed, or just underpowered. Nova runs hot, Adder can't use ecm, and the summoner mounts less weapons than a IS heavy.

Average mechs:
Kitfox and Maddog

Both these mechs are okay, the lack of speed brings the kitfox down but it can mount a lot of weapons so that helps plus ECM. Maddog is kinda out classed in every field except missile boat, and its lack of armor means its armor goes quick.

Good:
Direwolf, Warhawk, Stormcrow.

Direwolf and warhawk are about the same, they are big tanks and take a lot of damage, but they have heat problems and are super easy to flank. Their slow walks means they often get left behind. Stormcrow is the best medium, runs fast, and hits hard, just a good mech.

Near perfect:
Timberwolf

Lots of hard hitting weapons, lots of armor, and fast. Has little or no exploitable weaknesses.


Clans are better because they advanced. they got better tech. Thats just how it is. We can't do anything about it but wait for IS to catch up. Wait for the quirks to show up before you decide if clans are OP.

[Badgerthej]

novafury, this is true in a brawl the direct damage of the centurion does overpower the nova but since they move the same speed and the nova jumps you can keep distance where the ac20 becomes less of an issue and the missiles dont matter while you still beast out a reasonable amount of damage, nova to me isnt a facebrawler, its a mid range harrasser.