57 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

CocoaJin, on 25 October 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Mmmm, I bet she smells like cherries and denture cream.

Gosh! That almost made me throw up. Argh!

[BLOOD WOLF]

Wintersdark, on 25 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Pilot is worth much more than mech, no argument there. Skill > Chassis by at least an order of magnitude.

Still, chassis matters. Given two pilots of equal skill, chassis becomes the deciding factor. The Nova has several factors that make it a bad mech - you can still do well in it, because skill is so critical - but the Nova suffers from:

No Endosteel or FerroFibrous armor - the Stormcrow has FerroFibrous at least, gaining a substantial increase in available tonnage at no disadvantage as critical slots are not a limiting factor for it.
Fixed jump jets: If you want 5 JJ's, that's that, but 5 is generally unnecessary and not a worthwhile investment. As such, you've got more tonnage thrown away on equipment that's not really useful.
Crappy hitboxes and geometry: Width is a huge negative for any mech, and the Nova is wiiiiiide with it's arms. That makes it very easy to hit. Further, it's weaponry is heavily focussed in it's arms, which are huge and easily torn off.
Weapon positions: The Nova's primary firepower is in it's low-slung, wide arms, which means it's very easy to be in a position where you'll be unable to fire at someone who's firing at you. Low-slung weapons are bad.

The Nova isn't just worse than the Stormcrow, it's vastly worse. It's not even in the same ballpark. Nova vs. Stormcrow is like Awesome vs. Victor.

I do understand that. I am a Clansmen and In a duel the Nova will be at a disadvantage. That doesn't mean a nova pilot cant do just as much for the team. I do understand what you mean.

[Lil Cthulhu]

I was going to post an argument as well but after reading what has already been said, I feel like I would be doing this:

[LordKnightFandragon]

Wintersdark, on 25 October 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

He made a real argument. There are, well, 3 good clam mechs. 3.

IS mechs, on the other hand, have massive bonuses coming. Really major ones. Like -25% heat, 25% cooldown reduction, 25% range.

HBK 4G's will be dropping 20 point AC20 shells at ~330m every 2.9 seconds.

You don't get to whine about balance until you see how that pans out.

Mcgral's point is that while there are a couple very strong clan mechs, most of the rest range from poor to mediocre, and this will continue with future mechs.

Sure, their gear is smaller and lighter... but for mechs with fixed (or fixed absent) Endo Steel, Ferro Fiberous? Fixed jump jets, etc? These aren't "minor customization restrictions", they are huge. Clan mechs without ES/FF, for example, are flat out weak compared to IS mechs for having lost a substantial tonnage right there. Look at the Summoner: It's mandatory JJ's plus no ES/FF means it's down over 10 tons compared to a comparable IS mech right out of the gate.

I suspect after the IS quirk pass, Timberwolves, Stormcrows and Direwolves will still be competitive mechs, and the rest will be a complete joke.

I see the IS quirks making several IS mechs far, far better. there will be little reason for IS to QQ after that pass... 2.9s 20 PPFLD? Whats not going to be amazing about that? Then, isnt the HBK getting a massive armor bonus to it's torso? The Atlas is getting armor boosts, the Awesome already did. There are going to be laser cooldowns, better this better that.....IS are going end up being on par and in the end better then the Clans. Its going to kinda nullify any bonuses the Clans have.

Then, all those quirk bonuses in addition to having better burst and PPFLD...IS will prolly be better then the Clans overall.....which was my prediction in the end, Clans would be inferior IS mechs due to QQ....

Clan's extra range is really a non factor, most fire fights dont take place beyond IS Optimal ranges anyway......Alpine? How often are you actually injured sufficiently from beyond maybe 500m? Naw, its mostly pot shots here and there....then the fight closes to 450-500m and the **** storm commences....so claiming Clans have range, irrelevant really...

The Dire Whale, beside's it's boatloadouts, the Whale isnt all that great. its slow, runs hot, as do most clan mechs.......

The OP needs to go back to his mech counselor and show him on the doll where the bad Warhawk touched him and wait till the IS get OP'd in like a week....



In MWO, the only real adavantage the Clans have over the IS is their ability to pack alot of **** into a smaller chassis, but even then, I find my loadouts are mostly heatsinks due partially to my obsession with getting decent heat eff and cuz Clan weapons run hotter then ****. All Clan prime variants have heat eff no higher then 1......DWF-P? 0.9. NVA-P? 0.8. TBR-P? 0.9 WHK-P? 1.18. Summoner has better heat, but it packs so few weapons you cant really pose a serious threat anyway, not wiht all the Wubshees and Laser vomit mechs on the IS side.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 25 October 2014 - 12:54 PM.

[Badgerthej]

LordKnightFandragon, please note that I started this topic because I believe they are overpowered, I had no idea that they were actually bringing out the quirks for is mechs till everyone started spamming this "soon-to-be" feature that doesnt exist in game yet. every mech runs hot, because every weapon has been "balanced" with heat management.

if you're going to be pretentious then leave the argument because all i will do is turn petty towards you which will defeat anything i've strove to discuss so far.

I think clan mechs are Overpowered, as i said in my original post they were and always will be....do you not think that eventually they'll apply quirks to clan mechs with full variant sets. people will shout and it'll be the people with the loudest voices that win.

my main overpower issue comes from teh fact that people have said oh this build will be hot and these weapons are unboatable and you'll be at a dissadvantage. however in game all I am see-ing and inevitably getting nuked by are mechs of all weights loaded out with either overwhelming power (assault mechs) or mid power builds that dont overheat and still pump out more damage than most is mechs can sustain.

Edited by Badgerthej, 25 October 2014 - 01:11 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Most of these disadvantages people are listing aren't even disadvantages. Like running hot... that's just a facet of a mech, it says nothing about validity or strength.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Koniving, on 25 October 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

God damn it! The bunny is OP too!
Maybe snails... replace xenomorph fluffy bunnies with snails.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Badgerthej, on 25 October 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

LordKnightFandragon, please note that I started this topic because I believe they are overpowered, I had no idea that they were actually bringing out the quirks for is mechs till everyone started spamming this "soon-to-be" feature that doesnt exist in game yet. every mech runs hot, because every weapon has been "balanced" with heat management.

if you're going to be pretentious then leave the argument because all i will do is turn petty towards you which will defeat anything i've strove to discuss so far.

I think clan mechs are Overpowered, as i said in my original post they were and always will be....do you not think that eventually they'll apply quirks to clan mechs with full variant sets. people will shout and it'll be the people with the loudest voices that win.

my main overpower issue comes from teh fact that people have said oh this build will be hot and these weapons are unboatable and you'll be at a dissadvantage. however in game all I am see-ing and inevitably getting nuked by are mechs of all weights loaded out with either overwhelming power (assault mechs) or mid power builds that dont overheat and still pump out more damage than most is mechs can sustain.

So in your mind they were and always will be overpowered, so there will be no pleasing you. This entire thread is pretty much pointless then. Sooo....

yeah...

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Clearly she's trying to communicate with the ones who just got on the train to Hogwarts.

Lil Cthulhu, on 25 October 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

I was going to post an argument as well but after reading what has already been said, I feel like I would be doing this:

[LordKnightFandragon]

Badgerthej, on 25 October 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

first of all scratx, I have only used the nova trial mech so I am unable to fully understand any cons, other than having 12 lasers producing an enormous amount of heat...guess what, good heat management and battle pacing allowed me to regularly put out over 200 damage in about a minutes worth of firing before i got nuked by combined fire.

NUked by combined fire? Well....how did you manage to get yourself into a situation where several mechs could ream you enough to kill you? Guess what? THe all so OP Direwhale, let it get combined fired and see how long it lasts. Besides, yo could go trial the all powerful clans right now......Nova, Kitfox, Summoner and the all mighty Dire Whale.....I do wanna see this show, record it and post replays on YT then here so we can see all this OP in action.

If your getting nuked by combined fire, you dont need a Clan mech to do that...any series of IS mechs can accomplish the same group fire tactic.....

[Coolant]

to OP, really? another clan op thread? and two months after they are released? I am not even piloting clan anymore. The full damage instantly on ballistics to one section and the large/medium pulse beam duration is just too potent to go back to clan. They've actually nerfed clan too much imo.

Plug...make IS small lasers viable again please! 100m is less range than MG's....

[RazorbeastFXK3]

To the creator of this topic.. Any 'mech build can be viewed as being overpowered to an inexperienced pilot. 'specially when the inexperienced copies said build and tries to pilot it themselves.

Instead of crying about how overpowered everything is.. why not try to learn the weaknesses of them, adapt and overcome? If someone can take down a Direwolf that is equipped with x4 gauss rifles using a locust.. then is the Direwolf still overpowered? I've disarmed and crippled many Timberwolves before all the nerfs came around.. I honestly am a firm believer that nothing needs to be nerfed or adjusted to suit the whims of inexperienced pilots or pilots who seemingly don't want to bother trying to overcome the challenges brought to their doorstep.

I don't know how experienced you are or if you're just ranting based on unfortunate offline frustrations but with all the splashing and thrashing you're doing.. you're barely creating a ripple in the surface of what actually needs to be taken care of when it comes to anything needing to be adjusted for a better gameplay experience.

[Golden Vulf]

Badgerthej, on 25 October 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

first childish post prize goes to you, though i would have actually like to see a real argument instead of this.

He can be silly, because he is replying to something silly.

What the hell is op in this game? Do you even know what the correct amount of p is? Does anybody?

How much p is right?

And I don't think anyone is presenting an argument, they are just showing up with the facts, and that is what must be infuriating because you can not argue with the facts and win!

Edited by Golden Vulf, 25 October 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[Badgerthej]

I've changed my tactics and my whole gameplay since clan mechs came in, I dont think the game was ready for them and now all the knee jerk reactions have kicked in.

i've been able to take down clan mechs when working with others, i've been able to hammer some solo..but those were inexperienced pilots. when I hit people who powerbuild them I just cant win and when i fight an experienced pilot I usually come off worse for the encounter.

as for that comment lordknightfandragon.

yes i've always hated overpowered units in everything from computer games to tabletop. however that doesnt mean that there isnt a place for them, i think clans shouldnt have been brought out yet, not untill all the general IS balancing had been done...they brought out the clans when they were halfway through fixing the issues with IS mechs. because of this we ended up with a handful of superpowered mechs against broken IS mechs and so they had to nerf the clans to compensate.

the clans stillremain overpowered, these tweeks will come and then the IS will be overpowered, if they'd brought out the clans after the tweaks then i would not be complaining..but till then they are horrible murderbots.

as for my experience i've been around for about a year and a half maybe more and i've played through all the horrible times (like uac5 happy funtimes).

Edited by Badgerthej, 25 October 2014 - 02:01 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 25 October 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

You clearly didn't read the post.

Some of us have been asking for this new system or something like it FOR YEARS.

But instead of listening to the few of us that wanted to buff the bad chassis, PGI listened to the loudmouths and nerfed the good ones. So when clans hit, we had a lot of bad IS chassis and a few heavily nerfed good ones. Or do you not remember all the negative quirks that certain good chassis got?

L2readcomprehensively

I did indeed read the post.

I re-quote:

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 25 October 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Maybe if PGI wouldn't listen to the whingers on this forum and BUFF the bad IS chassis to be on par with the good IS chassis, then maybe PGI wouldn't have needed to try and roll back all the nerfs to the good IS chassis.

Doesn't really matter. One could as well have argued that if they'd implemented the Clans somewhat weaker in the first place, the same result would have applied. But the point stands, they are doing it now.

Rolling back the nerfs to a couple chassis is hardly a major deal, and is a very small part of the overall buffing pass. It's fair to be grouchy that it's taken this long to balance them all, though.

Quote

But no, don't listen to us players that have been asking for something like this quirk system for nearly 2 years now.

Except clearly they are listening to it now, so it's kind of pointless to rant on about it. We're all familiar with the PGI of yesteryear, but they're working hard at improving and have been doing so for a good length of time, very consistently.

Quote

No, just keep whining and get every mech in the game nerfed down to be on par with the shittiest of **** chassis that no one plays because it's a hot piece of ****. No, nerf EVERYTHING to be bad instead of buffing the bads to be goods.

Nerfing good to be bad is functionally identical to buffing bad to be good, because in this context "good" and "bad" exist almost entirely in comparison only. The difference, however, is that nerfing the stronger things increases overall global TTK while buffing the bad things decreases overall global TTK.

With that said, I wasn't arguing that point.

They could have continued nerfing Clan mechs; thank god they didn't. They nerfed them a bit, and are now addressing the IS mechs overall - not just un-nerfing, but making a huge, major balance pass of ALL the mechs.

This is exactly what you want so being ranty isn't particularly helpful.

Edited by Wintersdark, 25 October 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[Salvag3]

Yes clan lasers are a more compact in both tonnage and slots, yes they have a bit more range, but that is off set by the heat they give off, and their burn time, it's harder to get damage on one location due to the long burn time. Auto cannons are the same way the burst fire mode lets the enemy spread the damage out over their body causes a lot of ammo to be wasted. TBH the only real use Clan ACs have is cockpit shake and the obstruction of vision and even then that only really helps you in a one on one shooting scenario since you can only shoot at one target at a time.

The omni pods are cool in the fact that we can move our hard points around, however it seems like a lot of mechs don't have great pod options and what you end up seeing is the same pods being used. Also since we have 27 mechs to pick from and the IS has like 137 or something you can still get the hard point options your looking for by just buying a different mech.

With limits like fixed JJs, hard wired weapons, hardwired HS even armor, well what of I want my ammo in my legs cause people don't try and leg a Madcat ? What if I want a Warhark with AC5s and Guass, I don need 20 HS's these restrictions limit builds and hamstring the hell out of the clan mechs.

I'm ok with admitting that the S-pod may have been to powerful, well balance the pods hard points and relase a new pod to buy don't hard wire more crap into my mech I may not want to use. It's even worse with the Fox your wasting tonnage on a light that has little to spare when they are the only way to get weapons slots in the torso of the damn thing. Yes it was clearly the only pod to take because it's our only option for torso mounted weapons. That little guy already has a hard ass time with all it's utility in one super easy to destroy location.

Once we start seeing min-maxed builds out of the buffed IS, lasers with more range, shorter burn, less heat ? How will any kind of balance be left, PGI has said that hey feel happy with how they have the weapons balanced for clan vs IS for the most part and then they are making sweaping g changes across the board ? And as they are doing that the put more restrictions on clan mechs ?

[Wintersdark]

LordKnightFandragon, on 25 October 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

I see the IS quirks making several IS mechs far, far better. there will be little reason for IS to QQ after that pass... 2.9s 20 PPFLD? Whats not going to be amazing about that? Then, isnt the HBK getting a massive armor bonus to it's torso? The Atlas is getting armor boosts, the Awesome already did. There are going to be laser cooldowns, better this better that.....IS are going end up being on par and in the end better then the Clans. Its going to kinda nullify any bonuses the Clans have.

Then, all those quirk bonuses in addition to having better burst and PPFLD...IS will prolly be better then the Clans overall.....which was my prediction in the end, Clans would be inferior IS mechs due to QQ....

I'm very concerned about this too, actually. I think you'll still find Stormcrows and Timberwolves to be highly competitive, but the rest? The Direwhale will remain dangerous but limited, and with the introduction of the King Crabs dropping, the major advantage the Direwhales have will be diminished. I strongly suspect that the Nova, Summoner, Kitfox, Adder, and Mad Dog will be substantially outclassed. Can't speak for the Hellbringer, Gargoyle, Ferret and Lynx yet, but likely only the Hellbringer will be particularly competitive because ECM.

Quote

Clan's extra range is really a non factor, most fire fights dont take place beyond IS Optimal ranges anyway......Alpine? How often are you actually injured sufficiently from beyond maybe 500m? Naw, its mostly pot shots here and there....then the fight closes to 450-500m and the **** storm commences....so claiming Clans have range, irrelevant really...

Indeed, in most cases the clan range advantage is limited to it's small energy weapons. Past those, combat is rarely at ranges where it really matters. The cERML benefits the most from it, though - but it was rather ferociously nerfed too.



It's all been a major fear of mine from the beginning. The "Good" Clan mechs are so much better than the others, that people mix Stormcrow/Timberwolf/Direwolf teams with "OMG CLANS ARE OP". The weapon nerfs and such really hurt those less competitive Clan mechs.

[Egomane]

I see lots of trolling and counter trolling. Therfore I'll close the thread for now.

I'll see if there is something salvagable in here, when I had a good nights rest.

In the meantime, I'd like to remind all participants, that we strive for constructive discussions on the MWO boards. If you feel unable to participate constructivly in a discussion, please keep your hand of your keyboard. You will save the moderation team much work and might prevent a warning coming your way.