100 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Pretty much what the title says.

If we're doing a "Top X #" players for any kind of tournament, why is Elo active? Seems rather counter-intuitive. Not to mention it also inspires certain bad behaviors like people running alt accounts, suiciding multiple times in hopes of lowering Elo, etc, just to get on the leaderboard.

In a way I kind of feel that those in the higher Elo brackets actually end up getting the shorter end of the stick. Each game played is full of high Elo players, so in the end nobody ends up scoring well, whereas on the other side of the spectrum, the lower Elo brackets give players a wider window to excel.

So let's say Low Elo Guy found a better build and learned a few more tricks to piloting. He's able to smash the competition and consistently get high scores.

Meanwhile, High Elo Guy is struggling to get over 3 kills or 500 damage. He knows all the tricks, is running the most efficient builds, and using the most efficient tactics. Unfortunately, every player in the game is exactly at that same level, so nobody excels.

High Elo Guy could very likely beat Low Elo Guy repeatedly if matched together, but in terms of the tournament, Low Elo Guy will get on the leaderboard, while High Elo Guy doesn't.

The end result of this kind of system is it inspires High Elo Guy to take drastic measures if he wants on the leaderboard, whether it's creating an alt account, suiciding dozens - hundreds of times to lower his Elo, or playing in really odd off-peak hours.

If we're going to do a leaderboard based competition, there shouldn't be separate Elo brackets. After all, isn't the whole point of a leaderboard to basically show who the really good pilots are? Not, "Who the really good pilots are...in each Elo bracket."

Perhaps the answer to this should be implementing some form of tournament-only queue, or some way of the MM picking matches without Elo based on who's opted into the tournament.



Now, I'm sure this post will end up rustling some jimmies, because no matter how I word it, the overall message of this post basically says, "I don't think many people on the leaderboard deserve to be there." I can't sugar coat the underlying message, but while it may sound elitist, I'm not taking myself out of the equation (aka: this would affect me too).

A leaderboard based tournament should be based on who the best players are, and separate Elo brackets is counter-intuitive to that, by (ironically) making it harder on the better players while giving players in lower Elo brackets more room to work with.

If players want to compete to show they've got the talent to place in the top 15, they shouldn't be "protected" by Elo from facing the better players, and by opting in to the tournament, it should come with the full understanding that they will be facing players from any Elo, at any skill level.

Edited by Aresye, 25 October 2014 - 04:52 PM.

[Mark Brandhauber]

I concur, after a short spree of success my elo has gotten the better of me and i cannot progress any further. But seriously the devs never work weekends so this is falling on deaf ears

Edited by Mark Brandhauber, 25 October 2014 - 05:02 PM.

[Mcgral18]

All these competent players keep securing my kills....

[Adiuvo]

This is one of the many reasons that these leaderboards are completely pointless in terms of actually ranking players. Elo would ideally be turned off during these, but at the very least your Elo score needs to play some affect into the scoring.

As for this part...

Aresye, on 25 October 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Now, I'm sure this post will end up rustling some jimmies, because no matter how I word it, the overall message of this post basically says, "I don't think many people on the leaderboard deserve to be there." I can't sugar coat the underlying message, but while it may sound elitist, I'm not taking myself out of the equation (aka: this would affect me too).

+1

There's a few people on the leaderboard each time that I've ran into before, repeatedly. Let's just say that I'm pretty sure they're playing all day long...

[DYSEQTA]

Perhaps the opt-in tournaments should be ELO free but run on a separate server so as not to upset those not talking part.

[El Bandito]

Hey, leaderboard or not, fighting high level players is fun on its own. Now, if I can only put Odwalla's head on my trophy wall...

Edited by El Bandito, 25 October 2014 - 06:15 PM.

[SpeedingBus]

The unlimited amount of matches is the bigger issue here in my opinion whoever has the most time wins unless your that bad.

[MrJeffers]

If elo is working, players are matched against players of the same skill level, it doesn't matter if its lower or higher. So the low or meduim elos are facing other low or meduim elos, just like the highs are facing highs. Removing elo only means that highs get to farm everyone else.

[Budor]

I am still not convinced that there are so many different "elo" brackets to be honest, probably because the playerbase is just to small.

Today i played Stormcrows on my alt account because thats the only mechs i own there besides a nova. I thought i might aswell opt in while grinding double basics and maybe get some free mc.

I see the exact same people in my games i did in the last tourney on my main account and the teams are just as mixed containing everything from the poorest to the most skillfull players.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Budor, on 25 October 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

I am still not convinced that there are so many different "elo" brackets to be honest, probably because the playerbase is just to small.

Today i played Stormcrows on my alt account because thats the only mechs i own there besides a nova. I thought i might aswell opt in while grinding double basics and maybe get some free mc.

I see the exact same people in my games i did in the last tourney on my main account and the teams are just as mixed containing everything from the poorest to the most skillfull players.

how do you know how big or small the player base is? Also what is small? 1000, 200, ect.

[NKAc Street]

tourney winners don't mean ****, get over it,

[Budor]

BLOOD WOLF, on 25 October 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

how do you know how big or small the player base is? Also what is small? 1000, 200, ect.

I have no idea, but if i play on a new account that has never seen the group queue, grind enough cbills to buy 3 crows and see the exact same top players in my games while grinding xp on them during the tournament the idea aresye has seems a bit far off.

If my elo isnt inflated via group queue and i have a average w/l than why am i playing the top players for all the chassi allthetime?

Also the top spots for all chassi seem to be populated by really good players afaik.

[Mcgral18]

Budor, on 25 October 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

I am still not convinced that there are so many different "elo" brackets to be honest, probably because the playerbase is just to small.

Today i played Stormcrows on my alt account because thats the only mechs i own there besides a nova. I thought i might aswell opt in while grinding double basics and maybe get some free mc.

I see the exact same people in my games i did in the last tourney on my main account and the teams are just as mixed containing everything from the poorest to the most skillfull players.

Elo gap is +/- 1000, so that is a very large area.

Starting Elo was 1400ish, right?

[Budor]

Thats what im thinking, the matchmaker might produce tight team vs team elos but the discrepancies inbetween players on a team are still massive.

There seems to be no elo "leagues".

Edited by Budor, 25 October 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Ghogiel]

SpeedingBus, on 25 October 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

The unlimited amount of matches is the bigger issue here in my opinion whoever has the most time wins unless your that bad.

Yeah it need to cap out at 50 games played or 50 wins or something, then picks the 10 best scores you played from those, and that's your score, end of.

With all the different chassis brackets going on, people could then move to a different one if they wanted.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

While this may be a problem in some cases (me for example), honestly how many of these tournaments have not been won by high ELO players anyway? So what if they have it a little bit harder than most, first it is a little bit of MC and second no one really believes it means they are the bestest pilot EVAR if you win it. Do we need to forget how crappy the NPE is, seeing the same people on the tourney boards every time is not a good sign for the game. Let the little guys have some time in the spotlight.

Maybe game modes have something to do with the separation though, I generally find higher ELO matches in conquest than any other game mode, not sure if it is honestly related but it would be interesting to delve further into whether a specific game mode see higher ELO bracket matches than any other.

Better yet, it would be awesome for PGI to clue us into how bad the differences in ELO are at the top of the boards (or have been in the past).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 25 October 2014 - 09:15 PM.

[Aresye]

MrJeffers, on 25 October 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

If elo is working, players are matched against players of the same skill level, it doesn't matter if its lower or higher. So the low or meduim elos are facing other low or meduim elos, just like the highs are facing highs. Removing elo only means that highs get to farm everyone else.

In a high Elo game where each side has 8-10 competitive players, there is an extremely small margin for error, and an even smaller window of opportunity, because every player in that game is performing at their best. There isn't any higher level of performance that somebody can reach, and pretty much every game will end with all 24 players having similar damage, with relatively small kill counts (1-2/player usually).

In a low Elo game, there's a much wider margin for error, and a large window of opportunity, because not every player will be performing their best. This leads to a few players that (whether by their build, caffeine level, etc) can rise above the rest, and finish with a much larger score.

And why would it be farming? Last I checked players had to "opt-in" to this tournament, meaning they are intentionally saying, "Yes, I am wanting to compete to be a top player and try to win a prize." If they can't cut it against the top players, that means they aren't a top player (shocking, I know), and if they don't want to go up against better players, then they shouldn't be entering a leaderboard tournament. Simple as that.

WM Quicksilver, on 25 October 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

While this may be a problem in some cases (me for example), honestly how many of these tournaments have not been won by high ELO players anyway? So what if they have it a little bit harder than most, first it is a little bit of MC and second no one really believes it means they are the bestest pilot EVAR if you win it. Do we need to forget how crappy the NPE is, seeing the same people on the tourney boards every time is not a good sign for the game. Let the little guys have some time in the spotlight.

Maybe game modes have something to do with the separation though, I generally find higher ELO matches in conquest than any other game mode, not sure if it is honestly related but it would be interesting to delve further into whether a specific game mode see higher ELO bracket matches than any other.

I guess I should stop using the term, "top player." Perhaps, "most dedicated player" would fit better.

I'm honestly happy that there are new faces on the leaderboard, and that some players that wouldn't normally be there get to experience that, but it's sort of a bittersweet moment, because while some players are shocked at seeing themselves on the leaderboard, there's a large number of competitive players that (by their very nature) entered into this competition for the sole purpose to win it, but end up having to put in 4x the effort to do so.

It's like a reverse underdog story.

Edited by Aresye, 25 October 2014 - 09:18 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yeah with ELO running, the scores are meaningless in regards to who has the most skill. I mean you might very well be the rank in the top 5 on the leaderboards, except what you don't realize is that your only happen to be the best player in the worst ELO braket.

[Budor]

I like how both of you totally ignored what i wrote

[Artgathan]

While (exceptionally) frustrating, I do understand the decisions driving the decisions for scoring the tournament:

• Why not turn off Elo? Because then the competition would become more or less restricted to a small group of players. By keeping Elo present, each player experiences a "constant" level of difficulty, since Elo pits them against opponents of their calibre.
  
• Why not take average scores? Again, this would limit the competition to a smaller group of players.

When I say "small group of players" I mean that the names on the leaderboards would be a mostly foregone conclusion - it'd be populated exclusively by members of the top comp teams, instead of members from the entire player base. Doing it the way PGI has opted to helps ensure maximum inclusiveness, which helps drive increased player participation.

Is it frustrating? Oh yes. Is it a smart move? Probably.

Budor, on 25 October 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

I am still not convinced that there are so many different "elo" brackets to be honest, probably because the playerbase is just to small.

There's only 3 Elo brackets. I forget the exact numbers, but it's essentially 'low', 'medium' and 'high'.