161 replies to this topic

[Xarian]

Bront, on 29 October 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

[/list]Why is that not viable? Spiders used to go that fast without an issue.

Want to go as fast as you can? You have to give up 4 JJs. Simple. That still leaves you with 8. Or you could split the difference and mount 10 and a slightly larger engine.

Then switch to the 5D and equip ECM. If you aren't taking all the JJs, switch to a different variant. As I said before.

Quote

Meanwhile, 2 MPLs are the most DPS you can do in the 5V, and you now get a durration reduction (more DPS per shot), head reduction (can simply keep firing) a cooldown reduction (fires faster, more DPS) and heat gen reduction (counters the extra heat from everything else). that's over a 25% boost to DPS with no downside, while your MPLs have a range longer than standard MLs by default. Throw in the cooldown and range modules, and it's actually pretty scary as is with the build you posted,.

Duration reduction by itself accounts for 5.3% of your total DPS with a medium pulse laser. This is pathetic for a T5 quirk, which typically grant a 33% increase in DPS.

Heat reduction is worthless when you never approach maximum heat. That's a 0% boost in DPS.

Range modules benefit Medium Lasers more than Medium Pulse. ML+module has longer range than MPL+quirk+module.

So, no, these quirks don't do enough. This is the worst mech in the game, and its quirks are significantly worse than much better mechs.

[Prezimonto]

I disagree that you need all 12 JJ. I do agree that if you're not using 8 to 10 on a 5V you're doing it wrong. I also agree the 5V is best with an XL280.

I would have much preferred a series of regular ML buffs mixed with JJ buffs.

And this is from someone who's mastered the 5V. MPL are okay, but the play style is riskier than the ML loadout, even with skirmishing. ML's let you gain a bit more range, and adding to that range would be quite useful.

JJ buffs should be a no-brainer quirk set for the 5V, as Xarian noted, it's the ONLY SINGLE STANDOUT FEATURE of the 5V. I think it's thrust return should be specifically quirked back to pre-nerf levels mixed with increase fall resistance. Even if these were the only quirks (though ml laser quirks would be most welcome and I won't scoff too hard at MPL quirks), I'd be happy.

[Xarian]

Prezimonto, on 29 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

I disagree that you need all 12 JJ. I do agree that if you're not using 8 to 10 on a 5V you're doing it wrong. I also agree the 5V is best with an XL280.

I would have much preferred a series of regular ML buffs mixed with JJ buffs.

And this is from someone who's mastered the 5V. MPL are okay, but the play style is riskier than the ML loadout, even with skirmishing. ML's let you gain a bit more range, and adding to that range would be quite useful.

JJ buffs should be a no-brainer quirk set for the 5V, as Xarian noted, it's the ONLY SINGLE STANDOUT FEATURE of the 5V. I think it's thrust return should be specifically quirked back to pre-nerf levels mixed with increase fall resistance. Even if these were the only quirks (though ml laser quirks would be most welcome and I won't scoff too hard at MPL quirks), I'd be happy.

I'd also be in favor of giving it a +50% JJ thrust quirk and reducing the maximum number of Jump Jets down to 8. This is what the stock loadout has, and it would still be the god of Jump Jets. The fact that it uses 12 crit slots and 6 tons for jump jets is painful.

There are mechs out there getting 50% cooldown reduction and 50% range quirks to better weapons than the MPL. The 5V deserves some really beefy quirks - it only has 2 hardpoints, and they're both on the center torso! It's the most pillow-fisted mech in the game, hands down.

[Bront]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Then switch to the 5D and equip ECM. If you aren't taking all the JJs, switch to a different variant. As I said before.

Still has more JJs than the 5D OR goes faster than the 5D with those 2 builds. As someone else said, FF + 9 JJ +Max Engine is an option, which gives you more JJ AND max engine.

Plus, you know, all the cool MPL quirks, which practically give it more DPS than the 5D with 3 MPL and no quirks

Edited by Bront, 29 October 2014 - 10:42 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Bront, on 29 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Still has more JJs than the 5D OR goes faster than the 5D with those 2 builds. As someone else said, FF + 9 JJ +Max Engine is an option, which gives you more JJ AND max engine.

Plus, you know, all the cool MPL quirks, which practically give it more DPS than the 5D with 3 MPL and no quirks

The issue is that currently the tonnage and slots sacrificed for the benefit aren't worthwhile. You're not better than other JJ carrying mechs at the moment to actually be able to escape them or use terrain all that much more effectively. And if it's about positioning, then the 5V should have gotten the ERLL buffs that the 1V locust did. That's also a viable way to play the mech, and acknowledges that you can get places no one else can.

For a really effective skirmisher with almost no sting the 5V deserves to be able to hump in and out of 3D terrain like nothing else. It's thrust return on JJ should be closer to linear, to justify the total percentage of weight dedicated to the extra JJ.

[Bront]

Prezimonto, on 29 October 2014 - 10:45 AM, said:

The issue is that currently the tonnage and slots sacrificed for the benefit aren't worthwhile. You're not better than other JJ carrying mechs at the moment to actually be able to escape them or use terrain all that much more effectively. And if it's about positioning, then the 5V should have gotten the ERLL buffs that the 1V locust did. That's also a viable way to play the mech, and acknowledges that you can get places no one else can.

For a really effective skirmisher with almost no sting the 5V deserves to be able to hump in and out of 3D terrain like nothing else. It's thrust return on JJ should be closer to linear, to justify the total percentage of weight dedicated to the extra JJ.

To be fair, I'd have prefered the 1V got the MPL buff. the ERLL build requires sacricing the MGs or more armor, neither of which I like.

JJ quirks would probably have been better than the Heat gen quirks as well.

[Xarian]

Bront, on 29 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Still has more JJs than the 5D OR goes faster than the 5D with those 2 builds. As someone else said, FF + 9 JJ +Max Engine is an option, which gives you more JJ AND max engine.

Plus, you know, all the cool MPL quirks, which practically give it more DPS than the 5D with 3 MPL and no quirks

MPL refire time: 0.6 + 3.0 = 3.6 seconds => 1.667 DPS
MPL refire time with 5V quirks: 0.45 + 2.4 = 2.85 seconds => 2.105 DPS

New 5V with 2x MPL: 4.210 DPS
Generic mech with no quirks whatsoever using 3x MPL: 5.0 DPS

15% less DPS is not "practically more". It is significantly less.

Edited by Xarian, 29 October 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

MPL refire time: 0.6 + 3.0 = 3.6 seconds => 1.667 DPS
MPL refire time with 5V quirks: 0.45 + 2.4 = 2.85 seconds => 2.105 DPS

New 5V with 2x MPL: 4.210 DPS
Generic mech with no quirks whatsoever using 3x MPL: 5.0 DPS

15% less DPS is not "practically more". It is significantly less.

There is literally no point to continuing to argue about this. I love spiders, they're what I started with, they're what I drive when none of the other chassis appeal to me, and they're what I'll keep driving til the day the servers go offline... but there are no number of quirks that are going to make a 5v "good" - it used to be nice that it could carry 3 consumables + an additional module, but can't even do that now. It's a fun mech, and a good training aid, but continuing to try to argue the 5v into relevance is only going to make you frustrated, and everyone else laugh.

[UrsusMorologus]

I sold all my spiders EXCEPT the 5V because it is the only varient that is unique in the light class. I run with 8xJJs and 1x ERLL, rely on mobility to get on top of stuff and snipe the map and to escape from less-agile lights. Of the proposed quirks, I only see three that will be useful:

Energy Weapon Cooldown +12.5%
Laser Weapon Duration -12.5%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -12.5%

I will have to see if they cancel each other out in practice

Weapon Quirks Are A Waste Of Time

[Kaeb Odellas]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

MPL refire time: 0.6 + 3.0 = 3.6 seconds => 1.667 DPS
MPL refire time with 5V quirks: 0.45 + 2.4 = 2.85 seconds => 2.105 DPS

New 5V with 2x MPL: 4.210 DPS
Generic mech with no quirks whatsoever using 3x MPL: 5.0 DPS

15% less DPS is not "practically more". It is significantly less.

It's 15% less DPS at 33% less weight and slots, twice the jump capability, and 20 kph faster. Not a terrible tradeoff.

The 5V is still going to be a low-tier mech with its hardpoint placement, so unless they decide to switch those energy hardpoints into the side torsos, it will still be the worst Spider.

[Bront]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

MPL refire time: 0.6 + 3.0 = 3.6 seconds => 1.667 DPS
MPL refire time with 5V quirks: 0.45 + 2.4 = 2.85 seconds => 2.105 DPS

New 5V with 2x MPL: 4.210 DPS
Generic mech with no quirks whatsoever using 3x MPL: 5.0 DPS

15% less DPS is not "practically more". It is significantly less.

That's what I get for not doing the full math.

It's still significantly closer though. And the 5D isn't going to be getting as many or as big of quirks.

Remember, this is just a first pass. Things may change, particularly for the bottom teir mechs like the 5V, which, yes, will have a hard time being seen as particularly good. It's undergunned compaired to any other mech in the game.

[Shalune]

To be frank: the 5V is nowhere near the worst mech in the game right now. It's overshadowed by ~3 variants in its weight class, but this is true of 90% of the mechs in the game.

[Mcgral18]

Shalune, on 29 October 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

To be frank: the 5V is nowhere near the worst mech in the game right now. It's overshadowed by ~3 variants in its weight class, but this is true of 90% of the mechs in the game.

Lolcusts have more firepower; the Koshi might even be better than the 5V, being able to mount 5 weapons.

[Deathlike]

I don't even know where to begin on this thread, or just bad logic.

While the 5V can put the most # of JJs like ever.... that is actually not a very redeeming value. Using "max JJs" so that you can't use FF is arguably a terrible example and a bad argument to justify it. Even then, the tonnage savings is relatively minimal (from using FF) and not something I care about if stuffing JJs is a priority.

What the Spider-5V needs OTHER than another energy hardpoint (something that quirks would not EVER fix) is an increased torso pitch.

The thing about Spiders and JJs is that it becomes relatively difficult to shoot while high in the air. The ability to aim downward when you have height becomes gravely important. Having the ability to shoot down with impunity (even with a LL or ERLL) would actually be a useful trait to combine with the massive number of JJs.

So, as far as I'm concerned, PGI is getting this quirk all wrong... trying to "make it" a brawler isn't the best use of a Spider (although, it does have a zombie option). What it needs to have a "nuisance sniper" option where JJs and getting height on the enemy aren't a hindrance to be able to shoot targets while in the air.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 October 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[UrsusMorologus]

Mcgral18, on 29 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

Lolcusts have more firepower; the Koshi might even be better than the 5V, being able to mount 5 weapons.

Exactly... so what does the 5V bring that makes it a better chassis? And how to buff those elements to make it perform better at what it does differently

Buffing a specific loadout is solving some other problem, not improving the chassis

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 29 October 2014 - 11:05 AM.

[TercieI]

The only way to save the 5V is to add hardpoints.

[El Bandito]

Xarian, on 29 October 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

So here are the quirks for the Spider 5V:


And here is the stock loadout of the Spider 5V:


And here is what you get in Smurfy if you try to run 2x Medium Pulse Lasers:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3b4104175ad1064

This is not a viable build. Why? It's too slow. Here are the commandments for using the Spider 5V:

• If you are not using long-ranged weapons, then you must take the largest engine that you can - this applies to all very light mechs
  
• You must take all of your jump jets - this is the only unique feature of the Spider 5V. Otherwise, just take the Spider 5D or 5K because they are better in every respect.
  
• You must take as much armor as you can - except for your Arms, because they are useless on the Spider 5V.

Much better build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...98b62cb36244940

9 JJs, max engine, with Dual MPL.

I don't give a flying **** whether the 5V must use all its jets. It is getting the MPL quirks and that alone sets it apart from the other Spider variants. Besides, this build gets to use 1 more JJ than the second most JJ capable Spider.

Finally, there is only so much you can get from a mech with 2 hardpoints both on the CT, and Dual MPL is the strongest build there is.

Edited by El Bandito, 29 October 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

i think people fixate too much on max jj with the 5v - if its in the air, it can't change directions rapidly and its basically *****. its better played like a cockroach. in the shadows, along walls, in the low spots... get behind them (using that xl280) pop a uav, then an arty, and bug out.

sidebar - while functioning as a "referee" during private drops... thats where the 5v shines for me

12jj and a tag so I can say "you stand THERE"

I do wish it had a more open canopy... it would be a great camera mech.

[Shalune]

UrsusMorologus, on 29 October 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Exactly... so what does the 5V bring that makes it a better chassis? And how to buff those elements to make it perform better at what it does differently

Buffing a specific loadout is solving some other problem, not improving the chassis

I can't even...

How about the fact that it's got great hitboxes, has jump jets, and is far less likely to get 1 shot? Do you people even play this game?

[Felio]

Any argument that includes "remove (some number) jump jet(s)" or "lower the engine" is missing the point.

Edited by Felio, 29 October 2014 - 11:09 AM.