44 replies to this topic

[Rashhaverak]

BTone, on 30 October 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Yeah maybe YOU don't know how to play the Cat right, ever think about that? Of course you didn't! I've been doing fine in my Catapult, pre-nerf and post. If you think otherwise, then feel free to drop with me and I'll gladly prove you wrong.

Hmmph. Nice riposte, but I didn't say that the Cat was non-functional, or that I couldn't still win fights with it. Your claim was that "when you think about it, the torso twist range doesn't affect it terribly in the support role." in reality it did, you just think it was minimal.

[BTone]

Rashhaverak, on 30 October 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Hmmph. Nice riposte, but I didn't say that the Cat was non-functional, or that I couldn't still win fights with it. Your claim was that "when you think about it, the torso twist range doesn't affect it terribly in the support role." in reality it did, you just think it was minimal.

No, the reality is if you play the mech in its intended fire support role, the torso twist reduction doesn't affect it's performance nearly as much as this thread would lead you to believe.

Furthermore, I'll make the argument your utilization of torso twist is misguided.

First off:

Rashhaverak, on 30 October 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

The torso nerf to the Cat significantly affected all of the variants' performance in both a supporting and brawling role.

While it's technically feasible to 'brawl' in a Catapult, it would be a terrible act against nature. Its over sized CT and "ears", whether they carry missiles or an energy payload, make it incredibly easy to neuter or completely eliminate. If brawling is your goal, and you're sticking with IS, you're much better off in another heavy chassis.

And I'm not saying you cant do well in a mech outside of its intended role, I'm saying that you should use its intended role to your advantage instead of fighting it.

Secondly:

Rashhaverak, on 30 October 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

One of the keys to effectively playing a missile Cat is being able to remain out of the main fight, avoid a flanking maneuver, and keep from being overrun. Being able to torso twist 140 degrees allowed the Cat driver to target the enemy and provide support to the main line brawlers while still moving and maneuvering to remain out of the main conflict. When I drive my C1 I never point my mech at the enemy if I can help it, I'm pointed to the left, the right, or as I used to be able to do, some direction behind me, waiting and ready to position myself behind my front line, but able to still fire.

While I agree with the first part of your strategy, I find myself somewhat confounded when I get to the bold part.

• Even with the "nerfed" torso twist, you still have a very healthy torso twist range. In fact, the Catapult has a better twist range than ANY other IS heavy, and certainly better than the other fire support mech of its class, the Jager.
  
• Positioning your Catapult to go backwards just indicates to me that you were playing support a bit wonky. Generally, you don't need to go backwards as support. Side-to-side, absolutely, but backwards? It would be better to pace your advancement a bit better as opposed to having to fall back as a support.
  
• And again, the Catapult still has a pretty respectable torso twist, and if anything, helps balance out the Catapult with the rest of the heavy class.

Hopefully now you can understand why I think the Catapult's torso twist "nerf" is, in fact, minimal.

[Rashhaverak]

BTone, on 30 October 2014 - 03:37 PM, said:

No, the reality is if you play the mech in its intended fire support role, the torso twist reduction doesn't affect it's performance nearly as much as this thread would lead you to believe.

Furthermore, I'll make the argument your utilization of torso twist is misguided.

First off:


While it's technically feasible to 'brawl' in a Catapult, it would be a terrible act against nature. Its over sized CT and "ears", whether they carry missiles or an energy payload, make it incredibly easy to neuter or completely eliminate. If brawling is your goal, and you're sticking with IS, you're much better off in another heavy chassis.

And I'm not saying you cant do well in a mech outside of its intended role, I'm saying that you should use its intended role to your advantage instead of fighting it.

Secondly:


While I agree with the first part of your strategy, I find myself somewhat confounded when I get to the bold part.

• Even with the "nerfed" torso twist, you still have a very healthy torso twist range. In fact, the Catapult has a better twist range than ANY other IS heavy, and certainly better than the other fire support mech of its class, the Jager.
  
• Positioning your Catapult to go backwards just indicates to me that you were playing support a bit wonky. Generally, you don't need to go backwards as support. Side-to-side, absolutely, but backwards? It would be better to pace your advancement a bit better as opposed to having to fall back as a support.
  
• And again, the Catapult still has a pretty respectable torso twist, and if anything, helps balance out the Catapult with the rest of the heavy class.

Hopefully now you can understand why I think the Catapult's torso twist "nerf" is, in fact, minimal.

I understand your viewpoint, but I don't agree with it. You claim it is a crime to play the Cat as a brawler and that its only role is a support role, but that perspective appears to ignore what used to be very effective brawling builds such as the Jester, the K2, the splatcat, and the streakcat, to name a few. The torso twist nerf did significantly affect these builds, and that's not just my opinion, as others have posted similar experiences on this and other threads.

As far as your disagreeing with my tactics, I wish I had a video I could post of one of the many times I would be in a fighting withdrawal, one eye on the minimap and the other on the reticle (so I could drive and aim at the same time without catching on terrain) tagging the enemy mech and dumping a salvo of 2x20+Artemis into the chaser while moving at 90 KPH away, twisting to spread the return fire, and then my firing another salvo. A maneuver lost to the torso twist nerf, but not yet forgotten.

Finally, prior to the nerf, the LRM Cat was much better at battling its nemesis, the fast light or medium. The torso twist helped it keep lights from reaching that tender back armor. After the nerf, lights became a much more difficult adversary.

[BTone]

Rashhaverak, on 31 October 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

I understand your viewpoint, but I don't agree with it. You claim it is a crime to play the Cat as a brawler and that its only role is a support role, but that perspective appears to ignore what used to be very effective brawling builds such as the Jester, the K2, the splatcat, and the streakcat, to name a few. The torso twist nerf did significantly affect these builds, and that's not just my opinion, as others have posted similar experiences on this and other threads.

As far as your disagreeing with my tactics, I wish I had a video I could post of one of the many times I would be in a fighting withdrawal, one eye on the minimap and the other on the reticle (so I could drive and aim at the same time without catching on terrain) tagging the enemy mech and dumping a salvo of 2x20+Artemis into the chaser while moving at 90 KPH away, twisting to spread the return fire, and then my firing another salvo. A maneuver lost to the torso twist nerf, but not yet forgotten.

Finally, prior to the nerf, the LRM Cat was much better at battling its nemesis, the fast light or medium. The torso twist helped it keep lights from reaching that tender back armor. After the nerf, lights became a much more difficult adversary.

And yet, with the Catapult still having the best torso twist range of all the IS heavies, it seems to me that any whining regarding its nerf is unwarranted, and all these arguments are more valid directed towards any heavy chassis but the catapult.

And my opinion is not law, obviously. And while I don't believe in brawling in a Cat, I don't discredit those who do. That being said, I think it's still important to realize why they would nerf it in the first place, which is undoubtedly to put it in league with the other heavies. Because of that, I really doubt it will be going back to it's over exaggerated 140° twist.

But we shall see...

[LordMelvin]

The main thing the 140^o really contributed to was allowing Catapults to fend off lights that got in behind them. As it stands I have a hard time hitting anything smaller than a Hunchback if it can stay in my rear sector, and without lateral arm movement getting flanked is basically a death sentence.