126 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Halcyon201, on 29 October 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Why should the other 11 mechs get to target me with precision guided missiles with ZERO line of sight, and without any TAG or NARC help from the other mech I'm fighting?

Why should him targeting me automatically allow every other team member to target me AND fire missiles AND have them hit me?

Cause Presently that is how it works if the guy you brawl with (Me for instance) uses the R key, I have broadcast you location to my Team. Now they get to have a piece of you as well. The sooner you die the faster I can get back to my Bottle of Killian's!

[Lily from animove]

your mech has sensorns they are part of the base weight your emch has when you completely strip them. Your mech also has a comm system, you don't need to put it in your mech.

[Josef Nader]

Do you folks have any idea how IDF worked in Tabletop?

One mech with LOS is designated a spotter, and takes a +2 penalty to any attack rolls he makes. Other than that, it requires no equipment, no gear, and no devoted tonnage.

The LRM boat fires as if he had normal LOS, with no penalties and no downsides.

Considering spotters in MWO must expose themselves to pinpoint firepower that is as good as the person shooting at them, I'd say they're taking their +2 penalty just fine.

In other words, working as intended.

Edit: People also have no idea what the C3 targeting computer did in Tabletop. C3 let all mechs in the C3 network use the range penalties of the closest mech in the network.

For example, if I have a Locust mounting C3 5 hexes from a target, all of my mechs in the network would be able to fire as if they were 5 hexes from the target with no range penalties as long as their weapons were in range. This means that my Jägermech will be using short range modifiers for his AC2/AC5s despite the fact that he'd normally be in long range based on his distance. Mechs are -more- than capable of sharing data without the C3 system. The C3 system is rediculously good because it mitigates ranged penalties, not because it allows information sharing.

Edited by Josef Nader, 30 October 2014 - 05:56 AM.

[Napoleon_Blownapart]

i wanted to argue against this post then i wondered could radar dep (not as it is now) be used in someway to weaken the lock of the mechs that dont have line of site even tho the close brawler has you locked.then the module isnt completely useless because 1 spotter locked you.or the spotter needs tag or narc to cut through the radar dep.i know its sounding more ecmish but ecm blocks line of site targeting when radar dep doesnt.mind you im not saying it should be my way, these are only ideas...

[A slap to head]

Halcyon201, on 29 October 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Time to vent, because this problem hasn't been addressed at all despite numerous forum posts about it.

Frequently I get into a circling brawl with another mech at point blank range, and EVERY SINGLE TIME missiles start flying from off screen, out of LoS beyond terrain and buildings to pummel me while I'm trying to brawl with this other mech.

The enemy isn't even using a TAG. He's just looking at me, and that magically allows every LRM boat to shoot everything they have with zero LoS and hit me dead on.

So my question is; do the developers really intend for every single mech to broadcast target data without equipping anything, with no weight penalty, and with no slot penalty?

It takes 0% skill to sit in the back of the map and spam the target key hoping for red boxes to pop up from shared targeting and then spam your fire button.
Brawling has effectively been nerfed into the ground if this shared targeting mechanic is allowed to continue.

Every match it's the same. I'm really tired of it. I just want to have a nice brawl without seeing INCOMING MISSILES every single freaking match.

Now go ahead. Flame me. Tell me how bad I am at the game. Tell me how I'm a poor player because I can't find missile cover 24/7 on every single map at all times even when brawling other mechs.
I've heard it all and there is no excuse or reasoning that justifies this crappy, fun-draining, horribly unbalanced game mechanic to continue existing.

This is mostly directed at the developers anyway. I want to really hear it from them if they intended the game to be played this way.

Uhmmm....bring ECM?

[Angel of Annihilation]

I see the OPs point. If you go back to Lore, then yes you have to have C3 on the command mech and C3 slave units on others in its lance in order to completely share targeting data. However, your only talking about target locks, all other data such as position, type, etc was shared across the communications network.

Honestly I am not sure if the game would be better or worse if MWO was changed reflect this. The only change really would be that LRM use would require direct line of sight unless the enemy target was TAGed or NARCed. Now granted, this would be a big change especially for LRM users but honestly I don't know it would improve the game and that is the most important factor.

[Mechteric]

Personally I'd like to try seeing what would happen if you could only achieve LRM lock on an indirect target via Narc or TAG, otherwise you'd require direct Line Of Sight to the target to lock.

Then maybe later they could add actual C3 hardware which you could optionally install to also have indirect locks without Narc/TAG.

[Josef Nader]

Scanned from my copy of Total Warfare.

Tell me again where you need specialized equipment to spot for an allied mech?

(Yeah, I got my modifiers wrong in my post above. D'oh well.)

So we're clear, TAG, allows you to spot without taking a penalty:



NARC improves cluster hits and ensures more missiles strike the target:



And C3 lets you share range modifiers between units. It even specifies that it doesn't work for LRM IDF:



So, let me say this again, these mechanics are 100% in line with Tabletop and working as intended. TAG is the only one that doesn't work the same way, and that's because we don't roll dice to see who hits, so it affords a benefit similar to NARC, which I'm fine with.

This equipment had plenty of reason to exist in Tabletop, and telling people that you couldn't share targeting data without specialized gear is completely inaccurate.

[KraftySOT]

Everytime someone says "dont be the only target" that just means someone other than you, is getting raging pissed about the indirect fire.

Not a solution.

[SgtMagor]

if I'm going to knife fight with a mech, I make sure sure my team is close by, and I have a way to break it off, in case the feathers start flying, um missiles...

[ollo]

This reminds me of the match i had recently where i NARCd a lot of enemies and none of my teammates bothered to fire LRMs.

[Remarius]

Halcyon201, on 29 October 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

The primary function of the TAG is to allow others to target what you're lasing. It's a targeting laser, and yet others can already target what you're targeting without a TAG being used at all.
I know it provides other benefits but it's primary function is being discarded because you can already do that function for free without it.

It makes 0 sense to me.



Because a lot of the time it's a fast medium/light that comes over to my team's side of the map, and while I'm fighting him all the LRM boats back at their main are firing off every missile they have.

I don't need to track what mechs are using TAG/NARC to know that you can already share targets for free with your team. It's not a secret.

Yes op those lights and mediums are doing their job. Keeping you tied up and presumably solo from your complaints so our team can rain on you. Its working. Coincidentally a lot of us medium and light pilots are carrying BAP, Tag etc anyway.

Edited by Remarius, 30 October 2014 - 07:48 AM.

[Tuefel Hunden]

I know I always am happy to pull someone off "solo". The tough part is keeping them locked so my team can pound the snot out of the over eager enemy. So yeah, it is a tactic. Sounds like you got out smarted. Question is, will you learn or just whine more?

When I run a brawler, I tend to chomp at the bit to engage. But, I have learned not to over-extend or be suckered in by lights/mediums.

Concentrated fire SHOULD hurt. It should pwn you in seconds.

[-Halcyon-]

Mercules, on 30 October 2014 - 03:58 AM, said:

Indirect Fire simply means firing on a target without having Line of Sight to the target. If you have Line of Sight to a target that is Direct Fire. You really don't want to play, "Who is more pedantic?" with me.

And why should indirect fire get to track my mech?

[orcrist86]

Targeting and spotting has been in the original game since inception. C3 is misunderstood. C3 allows a mech to target and for as if it was the nearest mech to an enemy. So with a real c3 system missiles would lock faster and be far more accurate, also detailed info would be faster, and weapons would deal better damage at extreme ranges.

The current system reflects both the modern capability of war machine and the lore of the game.

[-Halcyon-]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Cause Presently that is how it works if the guy you brawl with (Me for instance) uses the R key, I have broadcast you location to my Team. Now they get to have a piece of you as well. The sooner you die the faster I can get back to my Bottle of Killian's!

So my question is "why does it work this way".
Your answer is "because it works this way".

10/10

[Josef Nader]

Halcyon201, on 30 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

And why should indirect fire get to track my mech?

Because LRMs move at a fraction of the speed of a direct fire projectile.


Current LRM travel speed is 160 meters per second. The AC5 travels at about 1200 meters per second. The AC2 and Gauss rifle move at 2000 meters per second. Even PPCs after getting beaten silly with the nerfbat travel nearly 6 times the speed of LRMs.

You don't like LRMs tracking? Buff their speed to around a thousand meters per second. However, you may find that this is a -lot- worse than having several seconds to find cover.

Edited by Josef Nader, 30 October 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Mercules]

Halcyon201, on 30 October 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

And why should indirect fire get to track my mech?

Because LRMs are semi-guided and track you. "Why should a tracking munition track my mech?" The question answers itself.

Halcyon201, on 30 October 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

So my question is "why does it work this way".
Your answer is "because it works this way".

10/10

Again... because that is the way the rules are written. Remember, as with any game, if you don't like the rules you don't have to play.

[CocoaJin]

Josef Nader, on 30 October 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Do you folks have any idea how IDF worked in Tabletop?

One mech with LOS is designated a spotter, and takes a +2 penalty to any attack rolls he makes. Other than that, it requires no equipment, no gear, and no devoted tonnage.

The LRM boat fires as if he had normal LOS, with no penalties and no downsides.

Considering spotters in MWO must expose themselves to pinpoint firepower that is as good as the person shooting at them, I'd say they're taking their +2 penalty just fine.

In other words, working as intended.

Edit: People also have no idea what the C3 targeting computer did in Tabletop. C3 let all mechs in the C3 network use the range penalties of the closest mech in the network.

For example, if I have a Locust mounting C3 5 hexes from a target, all of my mechs in the network would be able to fire as if they were 5 hexes from the target with no range penalties as long as their weapons were in range. This means that my Jägermech will be using short range modifiers for his AC2/AC5s despite the fact that he'd normally be in long range based on his distance. Mechs are -more- than capable of sharing data without the C3 system. The C3 system is rediculously good because it mitigates ranged penalties, not because it allows information sharing.

If this is the case, then I stand corrected....leave it be.

[Apnu]

KraftySOT, on 30 October 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Everytime someone says "dont be the only target" that just means someone other than you, is getting raging pissed about the indirect fire.

Not a solution.

Then they're learning how the game works.

Its pretty simple. People are going to bring LRMs, just like people are going to bring 2 gauss rifles with 2 PPCs or 2 UAC20s. That stuff is out there, its up to the pilot to be aware of what's on the field of battle and how to counter it. Some times you can't and you die. I got beat bad by a 2xUAC20, 2xUAC2 Direwhale the other day, but I didn't get my panties in a wad over that cheese. I just tried again, a little bit wiser, in the next match.

So yeah, "don't be a target" means "have game awareness and don't be caught out in the open" OP is learning that the hard way. Every vet has had this moment of frustration.

I see brawlers, frequently, get into the brawl zone and everything else happening in the game gets ignored. Heck, I do it myself more often than I'd like. It happens. The trick is to keep some part of your awareness on the whole game. I've seen clever brawlers actually move the brawl out in the open so their LRM boats can jack the fool who's not aware he's being kited.

The game is team death match. There's a huge emphasis on "team" here. Playing as an individual is a liability. Sometimes highly skilled players can over come that liability and make it work, but then they come on the forums and complain about how hard they have to carry the team. But for the rest of us, playing as an individual will be a handicap for the team. Either way its a lose-lose scenario.

The best comp. players play as a team, even when they PUG.

(Full disclosure, I'm not a comp player, I'm average on the best of days).