126 replies to this topic

[Piney II]

Apnu, on 30 October 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

Then they're learning how the game works.

Its pretty simple. People are going to bring LRMs, just like people are going to bring 2 gauss rifles with 2 PPCs or 2 UAC20s. That stuff is out there, its up to the pilot to be aware of what's on the field of battle and how to counter it. Some times you can't and you die. I got beat bad by a 2xUAC20, 2xUAC2 Direwhale the other day, but I didn't get my panties in a wad over that cheese. I just tried again, a little bit wiser, in the next match.

So yeah, "don't be a target" means "have game awareness and don't be caught out in the open" OP is learning that the hard way. Every vet has had this moment of frustration.

I see brawlers, frequently, get into the brawl zone and everything else happening in the game gets ignored. Heck, I do it myself more often than I'd like. It happens. The trick is to keep some part of your awareness on the whole game. I've seen clever brawlers actually move the brawl out in the open so their LRM boats can jack the fool who's not aware he's being kited.

The game is team death match. There's a huge emphasis on "team" here. Playing as an individual is a liability. Sometimes highly skilled players can over come that liability and make it work, but then they come on the forums and complain about how hard they have to carry the team. But for the rest of us, playing as an individual will be a handicap for the team. Either way its a lose-lose scenario.

The best comp. players play as a team, even when they PUG.

(Full disclosure, I'm not a comp player, I'm average on the best of days).

^^^^THIS for the win.........

[Apnu]

Halcyon201, on 30 October 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

So my question is "why does it work this way".
Your answer is "because it works this way".

10/10

Maybe you need to pose that question to feedback@mwomercs.com or support@mwomercs.com

But, since you're talking to a player, the guy is right: it works the way the game programmers made it work. And its something that existed in every Mechwarrior title and its something inherited from TT also.

On the TT, unless the players agree to it, there is no fog-of-war. There are double-blind rules, but they are tedious as hell, slowing down a game that is already very slow. Every player knows where every mech is at any given time and what the status of that mech is. Heat, weapons, armor, speed, standing, fallen, terrain -- everything. Any mech can target any other mech any time they want. Terrain, movement, range and heat, all factor against a die roll to see if that mech can be hit, but they can all be targeted any time.

This game they have some element of fog-of-war. You don't know where every mech is unless someone has LOS and ECM isn't there or ECM is countered. PGI uses this mechanic to define "scouting" as Role Warfare in this game. Silly because, I was getting "scouting" rewards in a LRM boat last night and I was way in the back of the pack -- so strange. I don't agree with PGI on what they define as role warfare, but there's nothing I can do about that except whine to PGI about it.

So my point is, it could be 100x worse had PGI stuck to strict TT rules and gave every mech telemetry to every other mech in the game from the first second. There would be no brawling and no sniping, just dark clouds of LRMs raining down.

In every TT game I've ever played, the mech that moves first or has the most open position, gets dog piled on. The same is true for Mechwarrior video games. Dogpiles was in the name of the game in the old AOL netmech days on up to now. MPBT:3025 saw it, as well as, MW2, MW3, and MW4. That's the way it is in Battletech and also in Mechwarror video games. It sucks when its your mech, but that's just how the cookie crumbles.

[Joseph Mallan]

Halcyon201, on 30 October 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

So my question is "why does it work this way".
Your answer is "because it works this way".

10/10

Sometimes yes that is the answer. Why do Bullets fly straight when in a Movie they can travel in an arc around a room? Why are phaser beams yellow and Disruptors green? Cause they are? Why Can only a Jedi use a light saber if EVERYONE has mediclorians in their body?

Cause it is.

Quote

but they can all be targeted any time.

not 100% true. 3 brush blocks LoS, and a Mech behind cover cannot be targeted UNLESS someone is Spotting.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 October 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Apnu]

SgtMagor, on 30 October 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

if I'm going to knife fight with a mech, I make sure sure my team is close by, and I have a way to break it off, in case the feathers start flying, um missiles...

@OP ^^^^ is how its done.

[Jacob Side]

If you make the mistake of brawling out in the open where the enemy's buddies can rain lrm's on you that's on you.

I will say I believe that indirect lrm fire should have a more of spread to it, every missile shouldn't hit you.

[Apnu]

Jacob Side, on 30 October 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

If you make the mistake of brawling out in the open where the enemy's buddies can rain lrm's on you that's on you.

I will say I believe that indirect lrm fire should have a more of spread to it, every missile shouldn't hit you.

But every missile doesn't.

When the missiles are launched, any terrain between you and the target can knock off a few missiles from the spread, it happens more than you think. Especially if the player firing LRMs doesn't have LOS. Also every enemy AMS between the launcher and the target will chew on the spread as it comes in. Finally the swirling melee that is the brawl means some of those missiles can miss due to movement or the ally brawler might take a few and inadvertently shield the target. I get peppered in the back by friendly LRMs often enough when brawling. I also get guassed by my own team and splashed with lasers too.

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 October 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Why Can only a Jedi use a light saber if EVERYONE has mediclorians in their body?

well, anyone can USE a lightsaber, but it requires jedi reflexes for it to be worth it, otherwise you're better off with a blaster (in that particular universe)

[Naduk]

Josef Nader, on 30 October 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

Do you folks have any idea how IDF worked in Tabletop?

One mech with LOS is designated a spotter, and takes a +2 penalty to any attack rolls he makes. Other than that, it requires no equipment, no gear, and no devoted tonnage.

The LRM boat fires as if he had normal LOS, with no penalties and no downsides.

Considering spotters in MWO must expose themselves to pinpoint firepower that is as good as the person shooting at them, I'd say they're taking their +2 penalty just fine.

In other words, working as intended.

Edit: People also have no idea what the C3 targeting computer did in Tabletop. C3 let all mechs in the C3 network use the range penalties of the closest mech in the network.

For example, if I have a Locust mounting C3 5 hexes from a target, all of my mechs in the network would be able to fire as if they were 5 hexes from the target with no range penalties as long as their weapons were in range. This means that my Jägermech will be using short range modifiers for his AC2/AC5s despite the fact that he'd normally be in long range based on his distance. Mechs are -more- than capable of sharing data without the C3 system. The C3 system is rediculously good because it mitigates ranged penalties, not because it allows information sharing.

Since the op is refusing to even acknowledge this and its follow up post incl citations
I will

This is bang on the money
The system 100% mirrors source material
If you dislike this its time to shop for a new game
Accept how it works and play to the systems strengths and weakness or show your self the door kids
Because this system is not going to change

Excellent posts Josef

[Hatachi]

In all fairness, rules exist in BattleTech for non-LOS firing of LRMs using a friendly spotter with not tag. It was a popular target using a lance of archers with some hidden infantry/ fast hovercrafts to spot for them and just saturate the area with death for 3025 era games.

Edited by Hatachi, 02 November 2014 - 09:38 PM.

[Mercules]

Hatachi, on 02 November 2014 - 09:37 PM, said:

In all fairness, rules exist in BattleTech for non-LOS firing of LRMs using a friendly spotter with not tag. It was a popular target using a lance of archers with some hidden infantry/ fast hovercrafts to spot for them and just saturate the area with death for 3025 era games.

Frequently being the "tank" commander in our friendly TT games I don't know what you are talking about. I have never taken 3-4 LRM Carriers with two guarding VonLuckners and puked upon any enemy mech that approached our infantry or was spotted by one of the mechs. Nope... never. I've also never taken VTOLs (Warrior I think) with 2 LRM 10s and quickly shifted them from cover to cover while dropping endless indirect fire on mechs. Not me.

[Aresye]

I've never like the shared targeting. I feel it takes part of role warfare away from lights and mediums, because everybody can do it. With that, it takes away the monetary value of special bonuses, because requiring more of a dedicated role means that bonuses can be increased.

It also pretty much screws you over if you're the last guy on the team. It doesn't matter if those 4 remaining mechs are cored. It doesn't matter if they're all spread out. As soon as one sees you, the rest come swarming in, which takes away the importance of teamwork and communication for them, and pretty much blows your chances of being able to pull a victory out of defeat.

In other words, it's free teamwork with no effort, and while it would obviously take some adjustment to get used to it, I think removing shared targeting would greatly increase the fun of the game.

More focus on teamwork, more focus on role warfare, more chances of being able to pull off a comeback, less snowballing effect (aka less stomps), more cautionary play, longer/closer games, and last but not least: Less kill stealing and bumper mechs style gameplay for tournaments.

[Koda Shy]

I have 1 lrm boat, but I run some type of lrm on all mechs just to help with assist, they are really really not that effective against a RD mod and other mods. and soon as ya start, you know who has it and who don't.

learn what stuff does, and why it does what it does, that's all ya gotta do. ive never been hit by more than one volley of lrms because of my awareness.

if you are brawling out In the open, then, that's all your bad. plus its a question of when to brawl and when not to brawl. don't brawl with 12 enemy still alive, it don't work out so well.

Edited by Koda Shy, 02 November 2014 - 10:19 PM.

[lshtaria]

Wintersdark, on 29 October 2014 - 09:16 PM, said:

Just don't be the _only_ target for the enemy team.

This.

And also this isn't TT. I wish people would stop thinking about MW in terms of TT.

[Brody319]

yea people should have to pay if they wanna target the mechs I targeted first.

[Thorn Hallis]

Past Mechwarrior games allready had deviations from the source material when it comes to targeting - active and passive radar. Overall I think a targeting system like Battlefield 2 would do more good to MWO then the tabletop rules.

[STEF_]

Halcyon201, on 29 October 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Now go ahead. Flame me. Tell me how bad I am at the game. Tell me how I'm a poor player because I can't find missile cover 24/7 on every single map at all times even when brawling other mechs.
I've heard it all and there is no excuse or reasoning that justifies this crappy, fun-draining, horribly unbalanced game mechanic to continue existing.

This is mostly directed at the developers anyway. I want to really hear it from them if they intended the game to be played this way.

"I want to brawl, I want to brawl I want to brawl I want to brawl I want to brawl I want to brawl."
So PGI already made this game an ethernal pug death-ball.

Now what? Erase the lrm too? Erase the lrm indirect fire rules?

But there is hope for you: you already know that: "how bad I am at the game. I'm a poor player because I can't find missile cover 24/7 on every single map at all times even when brawling other mechs."

I want to brawl I want to brawl I want to brawl....

[Captain Stiffy]

Yes they did intend this for one simple reason: not taking it would be idiotic and against the team spirit of gameplay. It's to protect the general populace from the noobs and the selfish.

[Kavoh]

I understand what you are saying yes, and I would actually prefer if the targets would pop up (as in the scouting mech relaying its position and movements etc.) but not be able to be targeted. For both weapons targeting and mech information reasons. It would play out similar to the current system in direct LoS situations, but it would give even more incentive for TAG/NARC instead of just being cbill vacuums. Would also stop the uncoordinated "hey look a lock I will have for 2 seconds lets send an lrm90 that way" that most people complaining about LRMs experience, the random lock LRM vomit.

More precise LRM play would be nice and relaxing instead of them just flying all over the map constantly (even if 60+% are just dummy fired, some being friendly fire right into my r-CT)

Sadly, it WON'T happen because its such a drastic change to gameplay PGI won't want to touch, especially right before and during the launch of CW. That and they may personally like the current system better. Some people do.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 30 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

well, anyone can USE a lightsaber, but it requires jedi reflexes for it to be worth it, otherwise you're better off with a blaster (in that particular universe)

Really I need Jedi Reflexes to wield a sword? I mean sure the Jedi gets the perk of deflecting blaster fire, but as a Close combat weapon in Star Wars the light saber should be a go to weapon for any hand to hand fight! Imagine a Light Stiletto in a thief's hands?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 November 2014 - 05:22 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 November 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

Really I need Jedi Reflexes to wield a sword? I mean sure the Jedi gets the perk of deflecting blaster fire, but as a Close combat weapon in Star Wars the light saber should be a go to weapon for any hand to hand fight! Imagine a Light Stiletto in a thief's hands?

I'm gonna be a turbo-nerd for a second, but they have something similar readily available. Vibro-weapons with monomolecular blades provide much of the same armor piercing capabilities of a lightsaber for a fraction of the cost. Lightsabers are expensive, difficult to make, and a bit gratuitous for your average thief/soldier/commando. Vibro-weapons might not be able to cut through a blast door, but they slice people up pretty good and don't require force sensitivity to build.