332 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Shalune, on 30 October 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

I'm at a loss. LRMs are already easily played around, only see use in PUGs, and their damage gets nerfed again. The IS laser buffs are cool, but clan lasers? Especially the LPL? It's already one of the best weapons in the game.

Clan pulse lasers were pretty awful really, but that clan LPL buff is huge so I am a little concerned.

[Kain Demos]

Pjwned, on 30 October 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

Clan pulse lasers were pretty awful really, but that clan LPL buff is huge so I am a little concerned.

Look at the ACTUAL dps and the DPS per heat.

Not much of a buff.

[Demos]

Sounds good generally, especially the (pulse) laser buff; this was indeed necessary.

But I'm really concerned about the BAP change. 360m sounds too much, as it will negate ECM is most cases of the game. MHO 240m or 270m would be a reasonable starting point.

Edited by Demos, 30 October 2014 - 11:13 PM.

[ExAstris]

Shalune, on 30 October 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

I'm at a loss. LRMs are already easily played around, only see use in PUGs, and their damage gets nerfed again. The IS laser buffs are cool, but clan lasers? Especially the LPL? It's already one of the best weapons in the game.

Yes, they're really only in PUG games. So with BAP now poised to knock ECM out of brawling (at least in a fair number of matches), that means LRM support is going to be easier. Which means the low-skill LRM users are going to have a field day, so a minor nerf to their damage output is in order.

Additionally, most of the chassis that are actually used for LRMs are getting buffs to them that almost (or even fully) compensate for the 9% damage loss. Burst damage will be lower, but overall dps will go up on a fair number of mechs (basically every LRM boat was mid to bottom tier). So with ECM cover possibly disappearing from the main fights, a slight preemptive nerf and a buff to AMS are are in order.

Its appropriate caution for the low-mid teir PUG games. As much as I love LRMing it up in PUGs from time to time, I know that if they balanced LRMs to be as competitively useful as lasers/acs for me, then they'd be monstrously op for others and wreck lower-tier games.

ECM has a similar problem (but its harder to notice due to not having fancy effects streak across the sky to shake your screen while your computer yells at you). ECM is really not terribly OP for competative 12 man drops. All being on voice-comms and not using much LRMs anyways, ECM just doesn't impact the game that much. But for PUGs relying entirely on the automated information they get from their sensors and team info-sharing? ECM is monstrously disruptive and powerful.



But if balancing the easy-to-use parts of the game to the lowest common denominator is what it takes, and I have to live with superbad LRMs, I'll take it in a heartbeat if it means we can finally get ECM fixed.

[Celas Thienf]

Table says that IS small laser default RNG value is 135 while it is 100 in game currently, is not it?

[Pjwned]

Celas Thienf, on 30 October 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

Table says that IS small laser default RNG value is 135 while it is 100 in game currently, is not it?

There are at least a few mistakes on the table that was posted, somebody needed to proofread it a little more before publishing it.

[Pjwned]

Kain Thul, on 30 October 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

Look at the ACTUAL dps and the DPS per heat.

Not much of a buff.

If it didn't have a respectable range buff on top of a very good damage buff and a duration buff (for a not insignificant but not huge heat nerf) I would be less concerned.

I don't see why the delta for C-LPL and C-ERLL range needs to be narrowed when C-LPL already had pretty excellent range for the weapon that it is, and the range difference should be noticeable because it's comparing a shorter range weapon to an extra long range weapon.

[Kmieciu]

Paul Inouye, on 30 October 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Let us know what you think about the November Roadmap posted by Russ.

Spoiler

Here is to the best of my current knowledge the November road map of features and changes. I will continue to modify this list as things change.

---

[color=orange]Inner Sphere 'Mech Quirks[/color] - not much more I can say at this point that you don't already know. This is in final test now and looks set to release as scheduled on Nov 4th. I will re-iterate that this was just the initial full pass on IS quirks. I am sure player feedback and data once live will cause us to make adjustments. I also know we will be going through and doing deeper passes on movement quirks and others.

*Negative quirks on the Timber Wolf S Omnipod's have been reduced now that the fixed slot Jump Jets have been implemented.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

---

[color=orange]Rewards 2.0 Bug fixes[/color] - There are several items needing fixing including the ability to farm your own TAG laser with your non Missile type weapons. There were also problems with Flanking and a few other items. Look for a number of bug fixes in the next patch.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

---

[color=orange]Balance Changes[/color] - With the new quirk system about to hit, we made a concerted effort to address a number of balance issues:

- LRM damage reduced from 1.1 to 1.0 - legacy item from ages ago that was past due to revert to lore values.

- Inner Sphere AMS ammo per ton has been increased from 1K to 2K to match the clans. This should encourage more AMS usage among IS players.

- Significant changes have been made to all of the IS and Clan lasers, most notably the range on Small lasers and significant changes to all Pulse Lasers.

- PPC and ERPPC have each had their velocity increased by 100. This means they move to 950 and 1050 respectively.

- BAP – We have increased the counter ECM aspect of BAP from 150m to 360m to give more value to the 1.5 ton item and provide more effective counters to ECM.



Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

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[color=orange]First Wave 2 'Mech the Fenris[/color] – MC and Cbill release schedule is listed on the Wave 2 FAQ.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

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[color=orange]Thunderbolt Champion[/color] - Thunderbolt 9SE Champion – comes with a 30% XP boost like all champion mechs.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

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[color=orange]New Hero 'Mech's[/color] – Our next Hero mechs release will be a pair of mechs representing a famous husband and wife in two iconic old school mechs.

Release Date: Nov 18th Patch.

---

[color=orange]New map Working Title Swamp[/color] – Beautiful new map as promised, I think you’re going to enjoy the vibrant colors, very different from any other map to date and adds another art palette to our available list.

Release Date: Nov 18th Patch.

Let me sum it all up for you guys:

On November 4th we loose out 30-40% C-bill bonus for TAGing our own laservomits/UAC5 bursts. Use premium time you earn during this weekend's even to grind as much C-Bills as possible because soon we'll all gonna starve for C-Bills. But at least ECM won't be a problem anymore so swap TAG for CAP.

On the plus side: Timber Wolf is getting a buff. If you ever had doubts if 58.2 points of laser damage in 1.25 second with no ghost heat is the best combo in game, then look no further.
Now it's 61 damage in 1.15. According to my calculation, that's a 14% better bust of damage then before. Aaaand you get an extra 75 meters for C-LPLs. And the S-Torso will have it's negative quirks reduced.

Timber Wolf might seem expensive. But it's the best mech in game. And looking at the next 2 mech back, it will be the best for at least a year. Everybody knows it will dominate the competitive scene once it is released for C-Bills.

Russ, Paul think about it: competitive guys won't have an incentive to buy mechs and mechbays because you are making the TBW too strong. I hate to say it, but put ERML and C-LPLs in the same heat scale group because laser-vomit is even more boring than poptarting.

Edited by Kmieciu, 31 October 2014 - 12:36 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Rat of the Legion Vega, on 30 October 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

Half of these balance changes (buffing Clan lasers and PPCs) are just reversing the nerfs you guys did to these weapons only a couple months ago. That's fine, because I wasn't in favour of those changes anyway. But it just seems that balancing goes around in continual, pointless circles in this game.

Mark my words, within 2 months, the forum whining about 1.0 LRM damage will lead to another massive LRM buff and LRMageddon part XIV. To be reversed two days later by an emergency hotfix. We've already gone through this song and dance 4 times already.

The whole balancing discussion/debate is getting very very tiresome. There must be something more interesting to talk about regarding this game.

.

time to start ignoring the complaints of LRMhatorz and return them to their rightful EQUAL place with Energy and Ballistic boats.

[TanE]

Shalune, on 30 October 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

The IS laser buffs are cool, but clan lasers? Especially the LPL? It's already one of the best weapons in the game.

Clans have to mitigrate Boostdamage vs Damage over Time.

Pjwned, on 31 October 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

If it didn't have a respectable range buff on top of a very good damage buff and a duration buff (for a not insignificant but not huge heat nerf) I would be less concerned.

I don't see why the delta for C-LPL and C-ERLL range needs to be narrowed when C-LPL already had pretty excellent range for the weapon that it is, and the range difference should be noticeable because it's comparing a shorter range weapon to an extra long range weapon.

The Clan LPL have nearly the same range than the ER-LL in TableTop Lore. This is not a feature of PGI.

Kmieciu, on 31 October 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

On the plus side: Timber Wolf is getting a buff. If you ever had doubts if 58.2 points of laser damage in 1.25 second with no ghost heat is the best combo in game, then look no further.
Now it's 61 damage in 1.15. According to my calculation, that's a 14% better bust of damage then before. Aaaand you get an extra 75 meters for C-LPLs. And the S-Torso will have it's negative quirks reduced.

Timber Wolf might seem expensive. But it's the best mech in game. And looking at the next 2 mech back, it will be the best for at least a year. Everybody knows it will dominate the competitive scene once it is released for C-Bills.

Russ, Paul think about it: competitive guys won't have an incentive to buy mechs and mechbays because you are making the TBW too strong. I hate to say it, but put ERML and C-LPLs in the same heat scale group because laser-vomit is even more boring than poptarting.

The competitive Teams always spam a Mechs in a config thats fits to their playstyle. You can't stop them doing this. In CW, there won't be Mixtech, so you don't meet Teams with 3xVictor, 3 Shadowhawk, 3x Jenner, 3x Timberwolf. They will go back to 3xCataphract. You like this more?

When you crossover such weapons in Heat scale your are not hitting the TBW for himself, you hit many other Mechs too (Nova, Stormcrow, Direwolf, incoming Man'o'War, incoming Hellbringer,...). And don't forget: shorter Beamtimes results in more heat/sec. So the TBW have to deal with close to 10% more heat/sec.

@PGI
Please keep the roadmaps every month. It gives a warm feeling, that you are on a good way and that the players have a preview of the next 4 weeks.

Edited by TanE, 31 October 2014 - 01:03 AM.

[Kjudoon]

ThomasMarik, on 30 October 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Is BAP a hard counter to all ECM or can it only counter one ECM at a time? If it is the latter can a mech that has both BAP and ECM counter two ECMs?

AFAIK BAP counters 1 ECM only. Also, it cannot be used or stacked with ECM.

[Void Angel]

Minoxen, on 30 October 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

My Main concern is the BAP change. 360m is a Dramatic shift to an already pretty decent device. The 160m vs 180m that ECM reached was an interesting dynamic that required entering into the ECM bubble to be able to cancel it. Granted BAP's bonuses might not be great for the 1.5tons, but it does have a purpose for LRM and Streak mechs. Enhancing its other things like powered down mech range and targeting range could be enough to get it on the battlefield more often.

Russ Bullock, on 30 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Well maybe you will be proven right - but remember a 1.5 ton ECM essentially has an infinite distance protection bubble. BAP for the IS weighs the same 1.5 tons -mech's choosing to equip it should be getting similar amount of value as the ECM user.

This to me meant they needed to be able negate the ECM mech in a reasonable brawling range rather than needing to be on top of the ECM mech.

The ECM mech will still fill an important role in moving it's heavies and Assaults through the map under ECM protection until the battle turns into a brawl.

I'm concerned by the Beagle change, too. I see the rationale, and I think it's a good one, but you seem to be primarily considering the D-DC and Clan slow Lights. It can already be a lot of... fun... to try and scout with ECM these days. People are often hiding behind cover to avoid long-range Clan weapons, and you tend to take fire a lot even with ECM. Then as soon as your ECM gets nullified, it's a missile free for all - and now I'm having this horrible vision of enemy scout 'mechs breaking my ECM without my being able to escape them to stop the Macross Missile Massacre - and since they can do it from well outside seismic range, I might not even know which way I need to run.

Of course I can't speak inclusively, but I feel like scouting is becoming a dead skill in a lot of the games I play - it's something I'd like you to consider as you monitor the impact of this change.

Bront, on 30 October 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Yes, but why should it's counter range be reduced when being paired with ECM?

or maybe ECM counter range needs to be increased as well.

The problem is that we're trying to avoid two counter-systems for one 'Mech; I don't know myself, but separating the various functions of ECM and BAP from each other in such a way that ECM turns off when you set it to cancel other ECMs in order to let the Beagle turn on might be nontrivial to code. Increasing the ECM counter range would certainly be possible, but it would also further buff a very powerful piece of limited equipment. Currently, there's really not much point in bringing both unless you really, reeeally want that extra range and target lockon - maybe a warning triangle in the Mechlab a la the Heat Scale notification?

This conversation also brings up a longstanding problem with the game: we have no official database of game rules, forcing players to play queston-and-answer on the forums, or just kind of remember things themselves - unless they want to sift through every patch note and likely announcement in the forum archives. I know you've only got so many resources, but I think the issue bears mentioning again at this point. It's not a Critical Thing That Must Be Done Now, but I do think it should be on someone's List of Things To Do.

[Kjudoon]

I should also mention that a lot of joy was sucked out of what this next month will bring by the unnecessary 2nd nerf to LRMs in the last few weeks and the unneeded buff of AMS.

Get ready to watch your tags and narcs become useless again as nobody's going to bring LRMs and we're gonna get trench warfare again with peek and poptarts because there's no way to make areas out of LOS unsafe for them.

That said: I am very enthused for the Quirks. The swamp map sounds very interesting and am excited to see what's been come up with. I'm cringing with the laser changes, but hopeful...

BAP is as step in the right direction, but not sure if it's the right step, so I'm interested but not sure.

The mechs will make some people happy. I buy mechs for C-Billls only, so....

[Void Angel]

LRMs never countered poptarts. On the contrary, poptarts countered LRMs. And brawlers. And dakka...

[Kjudoon]

Void Angel, on 31 October 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

LRMs never countered poptarts. On the contrary, poptarts countered LRMs. And brawlers. And dakka...

Really? I've usually had the opposite effect.

[Javenri]

I really like the new changes coming and I believe that some changes will be applied after they are patched and evaluated in gameplay. PGI seem to be on a completely different tune than in the past (we know all and make no mistakes). They move on with a plan and adopt according to their findings. Love the new PGI!

As for BAP, here is a suggestion. Make it counter ECM at the same range ECM works (180m) but allow it to target a single mech within 360m, even it us within the ECM buble. Short of like a TAG without beam.

[Void Angel]

LRMs take too long to lock on and reach the target. By the time you fired a poptart had bounced over whatever it was hiding behind and pasted someone with an alpha strike. Sure, on a few maps (Caustic springs to mind) there wasn't a lot of tall cover for the jump snipers to use, but anyone who thought about it just jumped sideways relative to the enemy. Missiles lost lock before impact and slid harmlessly aside. The only time you had effective LRM fire was when there was both no tall cover and a spotter and no/countered ECM - but those situations just caused the jump snipers to turn around and play Light Mech Whack-a-Mole.

A punch-damage sniper like a dual gauss Jaeger could be effective at countersniping, but it was harder for them to hit the jump sniper than vice versa, plus interactions with ECM and commonly played chassis could make it difficult or impossible to keep track of who was who on the other side of that ridge or skyline. In general, there was a reason the poptart meta still dominated up to the point they nerfed the crap out of jump jets.

[Brawler1986]

Is there any progress on merging the Clan LBX's and the current Clan AC's? This is THE THING which has high positive impact on creating loadouts with Clan Mechs.

[Myke Pantera]

First of all thanks again for sharing your roadmap with us.

Inner Sphere 'Mech Quirks': Yay! Mostly looking real good. The complaints i had about LCT-3M needing CoolRun more than Cooldown aren't valid anymore with the changes to SPL. BlackJacks Quirks are still off. CN9-D is still strange, but some others seem to like it this way... Most of the Quirks have my full support though.

Rewards 2.0 Bug fixes: Sounds good, although i have to say that TAG bonuses are probably the only reason why this new reward system still paid decent money. Without TAG bonus i'm achieving pretty average CBills on a good win, and dramatically little on big losses... But i gotta admit i didn't adapt my playstyle up to now, so i might need to do it now...

Balance Changes: Awesome! I like every single entry there!

First Wave 2 / Fenris: Interesting mech, but unfortunately clan... Still happy to see it

Thunderbolt Champion: Not my cup of coffee

New Hero Mechs: So Shadowhawk and Locust Carlyle edition =) Really looking forward to the both of them!!

Swamp: (clap) Pretty excited about it. Any PTS events for this one?

[Laserkid]

That BAP ECM counter range is a bit much. ECM lights will be pretty harshly affected. More so dedicated Short range lights like the Commando.