86 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

Why convergence of each and every weapon onboard is always perfect? We have pinpoint damage, we have twin-anything complains, but why should each and every weapon converge to a pixel? Books (some) state that there is limit on the targeting precision, why not to implement this as some random shift in targeting angles? This may in a sence put 'snipers' to some disadvantage (but only to some).

The idea is to add this random shift which is dependent on:
1) gyro class (yep, another thing to buy/change/improve in the mech)
2) weapon recoil (dual gauss or dual AC/20 really should 'upset' it) relative to mech mass and weapon locarion (arms are worse in this sence than torso)
3) time from pevious shot made or lrm shower caught
4) mech speed (standing allowes better aim)

So this can hopefully disallow pinpoint dual-shots across the map and reduce griefs about that. Yet on short or medium distance this wouldn't change much, I don't think this targeting shift should be high.
Such spread will allow the lasers to have much higher firing distances, they will still hit just portions of time thus recreating present day damage vs distance curve but by different mechanics.

Anyway, this is an idea and a change in rules. I don't see where it can break balance, but I may be meissing something. So A question to general community, would it be a good addition to the game or not?

[DodgerH2O]

IIRC, the official stance says that the engine doesn't allow dynamic convergence, and as to everything else...

It's a contentious issue. If it were a weekday you'd already have people ranting at you. Be prepared.

[FupDup]

In general, convergence causes quite a few weapon balancing issues and has led to the nerfing of many weapons which were only "overpowered" when used in large combinations (i.e. projectile speed nerfs on most ACs and PPCs, heat nerfs on small and medium class energy weapons, Gauss charge up, heat, etc.).


However, I don't agree with penalizing movement speed. MW/BT is made such that your robot has different levels of armor, firepower, and speed based on its weight. If you want more speed, you have to sacrifice both firepower and armor most of the time. Making mobile mechs less accurate would add a third penalty to mechs who choose speed over armor and payload.

Mechs which don't choose speed, however, would receive very little to no penalty whatsoever. The Dire Whale in particular is very very good at exploiting convergence, and even got PPCs nerfed solely because of it (2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss combo), and it's so slow as crap that it doesn't really lose much by standing still for half a second.

Heavies and assaults can afford to slow down much more than mediums and lights can. They don't get hurt very hard by it, and can keep on 'sploiting. As such, speed should not be one of the factors that reduces a robot's convergence rate.

Edited by FupDup, 02 November 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[NeoCodex]

IIRC Russ stated they do not want an element of RNG to your aiming and leading, which would make the game frustrating and not enjoyable, which I completely agree with. This is something that does not belong in a shooter game.

[Foxfire]

NeoCodex, on 02 November 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

IIRC Russ stated they do not want an element of RNG to your aiming and leading, which would make the game frustrating and not enjoyable, which I completely agree with. This is something that does not belong in a shooter game.

Only if you don't make it predictable.

That said, there are many systems and changes that wouldn't exist with a proper convergence system(such as Ghost Heat, for example).

[Kjudoon]

pyrocomp, on 02 November 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Why convergence of each and every weapon onboard is always perfect? We have pinpoint damage, we have twin-anything complains, but why should each and every weapon converge to a pixel? Books (some) state that there is limit on the targeting precision, why not to implement this as some random shift in targeting angles? This may in a sence put 'snipers' to some disadvantage (but only to some).

The idea is to add this random shift which is dependent on:
1) gyro class (yep, another thing to buy/change/improve in the mech)
2) weapon recoil (dual gauss or dual AC/20 really should 'upset' it) relative to mech mass and weapon locarion (arms are worse in this sence than torso)
3) time from pevious shot made or lrm shower caught
4) mech speed (standing allowes better aim)

So this can hopefully disallow pinpoint dual-shots across the map and reduce griefs about that. Yet on short or medium distance this wouldn't change much, I don't think this targeting shift should be high.
Such spread will allow the lasers to have much higher firing distances, they will still hit just portions of time thus recreating present day damage vs distance curve but by different mechanics.

Anyway, this is an idea and a change in rules. I don't see where it can break balance, but I may be meissing something. So A question to general community, would it be a good addition to the game or not?

Whiners who want this to be an exclusive esport game want it.
The programming to fix it is hard apparently.

Ergo, not much is going get done on it soon.

[CocoaJin]

It's fine if we can't have dynamic convergence, just code in weapon dispersion and cross-hair/reticle bloom. Then allow targeting computers to improve accuracy by tightening the dispersion and bloom.

The competitive crowd just needs to understand that the basic weapon systems on mechs have limitations and that good pilots succeed in spite of the the systems flaws...and that one needs to outfit their mech, at the expense of mounting other equipment, to improve that aspect of the weapon system. So investing in targeting computers, purchase of an upgrade neuro-helmet, etc is what gives you higher precision, but perhaps it means less optimizing of your mech toward heat dissipation or rate of fire, etc.

If done right, ideally only dedicated snipers would seek to achieve the higher levels of pin-point accuracy for long range alphas...the rest of us would likely seek higher levels of heat dissipation or rate of fire, or some lesser values of some combination of the two or all three.

[Bront]

NeoCodex, on 02 November 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

IIRC Russ stated they do not want an element of RNG to your aiming and leading, which would make the game frustrating and not enjoyable, which I completely agree with. This is something that does not belong in a shooter game.

There are ways you can make it not 100% reliable without making it pure random by making some quick rules about a small cone of fire type solution.

1) No heat, no movement = perfect convergence.
2) Moving = Mild convergence issues (slightly greater on the torso vs the arms. Arms are meant to be mobile, and would be stablized better. Ideally, have it ramp up till you get to about 50 kph, and then stop. No need to punish faster mechs too much, or have the max be different at different weight classes.
3) Higher heat = mild convergence issues (mimicking TT heat accuracy issues).

Now, I'm not talking about a huge cone, I'm talking about maybe a degree or two offset. Not enough to make a huge difference at short range, but can cause problems at longer ranges, or spread damage of weapons around a bit for mechs moving while under high heat and still firing.

I'm mostly brainstorming here. I'd need to see how it worked before I judged it and put hard numbers to it.

[Xanquil]

This is an ongoing, and ever growing problem. Instant perfect convergent alpha strikes are still one of MWOs biggest balance problems. The hardest part in getting it fixed is convincing PGI that it needs to be changed.
The other problem is "the fear of RNG". RNG has it's place in e-sports, and would be the best/easiest fix to the alpha problem this game has. (even though I hate RNG)

To put the skill back into the game every weapon fired at the same time needs to not be guaranteed to hit, and always hit the same location. As it stands the more weapons you can fire at once the less skill it takes to take out your enemy. Which gives the "don't nerf my skill" group no leg to stand on.

If group fire always had a cone of fire based on number of weapons fired at the same time it would give people a clear line of tactics, the choice of power over precision. The only thing else that would need to be changed is weapon fire (single group or chain) would need a .5sec global cool down to keep macros from working around the COF.
Simple, easy, predictable and effective.

The added bonuses to this sort of thing is that it would increase TTK, get rid of the need for ghost heat(on most weapons) reduce the number of one shot kills/ coring kills the game has, and over all make the game better. ( especially for newer players).

Perfect convergent alpha strikes need to be changed/removed in order for this game to ever be "balanced".

[Ulketulke]

Why open another topic about this and not using one of the existing?
Besides that, every argument about that topic has already been said.

Edited by Ulketulke, 02 November 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[KuroNyra]

People will cry, I already pointed out the problem of instant-convergence.


Weapons should have there own aim with the different position they have on the mech.$
With a convergence making itselft after a few secondes

Edited by KuroNyra, 02 November 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Progressive convergence was a very nice idea, but HSR can't exist with it. I would prefer HSR to progressive convergence.

However, there are other options, which are not at all random, but remove the magical convergence MWO has.

Parallel weapon convergence; nothing will converge, but aim straight. Dual gauss or AC40s will have to fire separately to hit the same hitbox, otherwise if fired together will likely hit both STs. Completely predictable, no random, and actually requires some skill to be proficient in.

Of course, this favours some mechs over others. Whale, for example, can fit 4 ERMLs and a Gauss in the same arm, which if alpha-ed will hit very closely, perhaps two hitboxes on most mechs. Hunch 4P also comes to mind.

I don't imagine it's ever going to happen, of course.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Computer controlled alignment. Each mech has a powerful computer that takes into account the aimpoint and micro-adjusts the weapons to produce pinpoint accuracy.

Seriously, the main gun on an M1A2 Abrams tank can on the fly calculate and adjust on the fly based on terrain, heat, humidity, speed of gun platform and speed of target and easily hit targets moving 60-70 kph so why is it a stretch that 1000 years in the future, they can't have something even more sophisticated?

[Vassago Rain]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Computer controlled alignment. Each mech has a powerful computer that takes into account the aimpoint and micro-adjusts the weapons to produce pinpoint accuracy.

Seriously, the main gun on an M1A2 Abrams tank can on the fly calculate and adjust on the fly based on terrain, heat, humidity, speed of gun platform and speed of target and easily hit targets moving 60-70 kph so why is it a stretch that 1000 years in the future, they can't have something even more sophisticated?

Because an awful piece of published fanfiction once portrayed robot aiming as golden circles or something, so it's super important that we have it in the 2012 game.

[C E Dwyer]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Computer controlled alignment. Each mech has a powerful computer that takes into account the aimpoint and micro-adjusts the weapons to produce pinpoint accuracy.

Seriously, the main gun on an M1A2 Abrams tank can on the fly calculate and adjust on the fly based on terrain, heat, humidity, speed of gun platform and speed of target and easily hit targets moving 60-70 kph so why is it a stretch that 1000 years in the future, they can't have something even more sophisticated?

Define easily hit, having worked on targeting systems for MTB's they are far from perfect and the prefered way of shooting is still stationary, hulldown.

also the canon of mw universe targeting comp were one of the lost tech so yes it is a stretch its why lrms only have a range of less than 2 kilos

[Foxfire]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Computer controlled alignment. Each mech has a powerful computer that takes into account the aimpoint and micro-adjusts the weapons to produce pinpoint accuracy.

Seriously, the main gun on an M1A2 Abrams tank can on the fly calculate and adjust on the fly based on terrain, heat, humidity, speed of gun platform and speed of target and easily hit targets moving 60-70 kph so why is it a stretch that 1000 years in the future, they can't have something even more sophisticated?

Because it is a game and there have been asinine changes and adjustments made to the game because of the lack of any real convergence system.

[Mcgral18]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Computer controlled alignment. Each mech has a powerful computer that takes into account the aimpoint and micro-adjusts the weapons to produce pinpoint accuracy.

Seriously, the main gun on an M1A2 Abrams tank can on the fly calculate and adjust on the fly based on terrain, heat, humidity, speed of gun platform and speed of target and easily hit targets moving 60-70 kph so why is it a stretch that 1000 years in the future, they can't have something even more sophisticated?

So, the 4.5 ton gun can perfectly align itself to hit a single CM every time it fires?

That's what most of the convergence suggestions allow.

Now, multiple 6-15 ton weapons all mounted in different locations magically converging in the same millisecond to whichever location is given, all hitting the same pixel? I'm not sure your M1A2 can do that. But, if you want to fire those weapons one by one, feel free to have that magic convergence. You just have to work for all of the weapons to hit the same hitbox.

[XphR]

pyrocomp, on 02 November 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

The idea is to add this random shift which is dependent on:

2) weapon recoil (dual gauss or dual AC/20 really should 'upset' it) relative to mech mass and weapon locarion (arms are worse in this sence than torso)
3) time from pevious shot made or lrm shower caught
4) mech speed (standing allowes better aim)

So this can hopefully disallow pinpoint dual-shots across the map and reduce griefs about that. Yet on short or medium distance this wouldn't change much, I don't think this targeting shift should be high.

Im not quite sure how you have come to this conclusion, the brawlers in this situation would be affected by these mechanics (Moving often, firing at any opportunity, being a highlighted LRM target) and someone taking the role of sniping would not be (Moving to avoid long range LRM attempts and for repositioning needs but able to full stop before each fire attempt, not taking near the same amount of oppositional aggression and not being affected by the distance of the shot)?

[Kiryuin Ragyo]

Quote

WHY CONVERGENCE OF EACH AND EVERY WEAPON ONBOARD IS ALWAYS PERFECT?

Precise Laser is precise.
(c) Sincerely yours captain Obvious.

[Allen Ward]

Don't question the logic of BT canon or how things are being implemented in any games of that series. And never compare technical stuff to how the real world works. BT tech is hilarious and so randomly put together, it was a surprise it worked as a game at all. The level of technology in the BT universe is a weird mixture of far future (from our perspective) and mid- to late 20th century technology (sometimes even early 20th cent). The people at FASA had no idea about weapon technology OR they willingly ignored most of it (I believe they rolled it on random tables). 30m tall walking robotic vehicles are a stupid idea in itself. Guns that have reduced range when firing larger calibers contradict laws of nature. Aiming systems are presented on the level of WW1 tanks, besides the fact that the motion of the mechs limbs, torso and all are somehow compensated perfectly (so the most complex and advanced part of aiming tech is available everywhere, while more primitive systems became lostech). There is a huge gap between techlevels compiled and mixed into what is called BT technology. One should better not start and try to "fix this", there is no end to it. Just deal with it and check if it means fun to oyu or not.