107 replies to this topic

[JT Black]

Greetings.

Once feedback about this change is received I am hopping it will be adjusted to a range of up to 200 mts.

In the meantime do please continue to submit feedback so that the relevant Devs pick it up.

Let us help balance new content by providing valid feedback.

There is a backlog of changes awaiting deployment ,BAP is a effort to make it more usefull.
It just needs better adjustment by reduction of effective range.

Kind regards.

P.S -Russ,Paul.
If you are reading this can you kindly review BAP effective range values.

[Simbacca]

Other ways to buff Beagle Active Probe without the need to resort to such an overly large (360m) ECM detection range (which should be only 180m) could perhaps include a zoom bonus akin to the clan targeting computer, and/or +1 seconds of target decay.

[Widowmaker1981]

Simbacca, on 06 November 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Other ways to buff Beagle Active Probe without the need to resort to such an overly large (360m) ECM detection range (which should be only 180m) could perhaps include a zoom bonus akin to the clan targeting computer, and/or +1 seconds of target decay.

it should definitely be at least 200m - it was ridiculous that an ECM carrier could stand 181-200m away from a BAP carrying mech, and destroy its sensors so it could not target anything. I agree 360 is overkill.

[Simbacca]

Widowmaker1981, on 06 November 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

it should definitely be at least 200m - it was ridiculous that an ECM carrier could stand 181-200m away from a BAP carrying mech, and destroy its sensors so it could not target anything. I agree 360 is overkill.

What do you mean by destroy its sensors?

[NetherlightWolf]

Simbacca, on 06 November 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

What do you mean by destroy its sensors?

By destroying the mech section housing the bap.

[Widowmaker1981]

Simbacca, on 06 November 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

What do you mean by destroy its sensors?

ECM has a 200m bubble where if an enemy mech is inside it, it cannot target ANYTHING, regardless of the target being under ECM or not, it gets flashing target boxes/arrows and 'low sensors' warning. With BAP/CAP range being 180m, a sneaky ECM light could stand in the 20m zone where its ECM worked, but the BAP was out of range and prevent the BAP equipped mech from using streaks/lrms at all. BAP/CAP should prevent that, and now it does.. but all it needed was a 20m range extension, not 180m

edit: quoted wrong post

edit 2: I suspect the reason for the 360m range is that is the range of C-SSRMs, they wanted to stop ECM lights being immune to them for 50% of their range, but im not sure it was needed really.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 07 November 2014 - 01:42 AM.

[mailin]

I HATE the new BAP range. It makes having ECM nearly useless. There were PLENTY of counters to ECM before, and their ranges and durations were nearly spot on. If ECM were overpowered there would be more of it. Instead, in the solo queue many times when I drop our team has no ECM. Furthermore, very often people equip their Kit Foxes without ECM. Both of these were BEFORE the most recent patch.

[Widowmaker1981]

mailin, on 07 November 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

I HATE the new BAP range. It makes having ECM nearly useless. There were PLENTY of counters to ECM before, and their ranges and durations were nearly spot on. If ECM were overpowered there would be more of it. Instead, in the solo queue many times when I drop our team has no ECM. Furthermore, very often people equip their Kit Foxes without ECM. Both of these were BEFORE the most recent patch.

While i agree the range extension is too much (id say 250m), the people equipping their Kitfoxes without ECM were STUPID. If you don't take ECM, then the Adder has better hardpoints, mounted in better places on a chassis the same speed and size, with 5 extra tons to play with.

[Simbacca]

Widowmaker1981, on 07 November 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

ECM has a 200m bubble where if an enemy mech is inside it, it cannot target ANYTHING, regardless of the target being under ECM or not, it gets flashing target boxes/arrows and 'low sensors' warning. With BAP/CAP range being 180m, a sneaky ECM light could stand in the 20m zone where its ECM worked, but the BAP was out of range and prevent the BAP equipped mech from using streaks/lrms at all. BAP/CAP should prevent that, and now it does.. but all it needed was a 20m range extension, not 180m

edit: quoted wrong post

edit 2: I suspect the reason for the 360m range is that is the range of C-SSRMs, they wanted to stop ECM lights being immune to them for 50% of their range, but im not sure it was needed really.

ECM has a range of 180m, not 200m......Hence my suggestion of 180m BAP Counter-ECM range.

Edited by Simbacca, 07 November 2014 - 04:53 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Simbacca, on 07 November 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

ECM has a range of 180m, not 200m......Hence my suggestion of 180m BAP Counter-ECM range.

Yeah its true i might be wrong on the total ranges before, but there was definitely a zone where ECM was in range to ruin sensors, but BAP was out of range to cancel the ECM. that should not be possible, the range should be the same for ECM and BAP.. maybe slightly higher for BAP since its the same weight as ECM but its power is far less.. but only slghtly, not double.

[Nik Reaper]

Can anyone do a quick test to verfy if advanced sensor range increases the AP counter range?

This discussion is talking about two different things , an AP that is 360m and one that is about 500m counter for ECM.
Also yeah, 250~270 m seems like it would be best and while they are at it add so we detect shutdown mechs at the same range.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 07 November 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[BigBadVlad]

Chiming in with my feedback from playing in my Commando 2D last night.

ECM is countered often, usually even before I actually see an enemy mech (ie: over a ridge).

Pretty difficult to sneak up on many mechs as I think a number of mechs are now equipping BAP to go ECM hunting. BAP can be mounted on any mech where as ECM is restricted to particular mechs.

My 2D was equipped with Narc and I used to try and scout enemies, pop a timely UAV in a good spot, NARC enemies for either LRM bombardment or even just to give away their position. I found it pretty difficult to get into Narc range without being "doritoed" and taking fire.

Couple of games I tried to drop back to provide ECM cover for a number of my team and found I had to continually drop back and could cover a couple guys in the back for a bit but not the frontline guys cause my ECM was out from some enemy over a ridge.

Switched my 2D back into Sniper Mando config which is ECM, BAP, Adv Sensor Range and Advanced Target Decay module with a lone ER-PPC. This worked for spotting purposes but I would often be off by myself somewhere with an eye on enemies and could chip in with the ER-PPC but could in no way provide ECM cover to teammates. In this way I felt like I was contributing to the team effort aside from just being an under-powered light mech. But as soon as a Jenner or Firestarter would head in my direction I would have to break off and run cause I know the odds are not in my favor one on one with one of these mechs, not to mention I'd start taking LRM fire from their heavier mechs as well.

It kind of feels like outside of using the long range spotting ECM capability, I'd be almost better off using that ton and half for AMS or some offensive firepower. The ECM is definitely less useful now to either try and flank/sneak up on enemies or even being able to try and cover mechs with ECM is pretty difficult. Felt like an AMS with ammo would have been more useful...

Edited by BigBadVlad, 07 November 2014 - 10:58 AM.

[Ironwithin]

BigBadVlad, on 07 November 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

...The ECM is definitely less useful now ...

Wich is exactly what this change was meant to do.

Many other before have said so but here it goes: ECM is not a brawling tool, it's a positioning tool.
Not meant to give you a big advantage in combat itself but to let you get to combat undetected/mostly undamaged.

[BigBadVlad]

Ironwithin, on 07 November 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Wich is exactly what this change was meant to do.

Many other before have said so but here it goes: ECM is not a brawling tool, it's a positioning tool.
Not meant to give you a big advantage in combat itself but to let you get to combat undetected/mostly undamaged.

And that's what I was trying to say. I couldn't pop over a ridge without taking fire even before spotting an enemy myself at times. Caustic, which has lots of ridge fighting, ECM is often countered before I even try to go over a ridge. I'd pop over and the dorito made me an instant target. The 2D can't risk taking a hit from dual Gauss, PPC's (yes on the run). In a Spider or Jenner or Firestarter at least you can take a hit, and likely fight any other light scout.

ECM now provides me cover at long range I found because ECM keeps me from showing up on radar at long range only and the 2D is small enough to not be visually spotted at range.

[RolloI]

PGI want to lose players ...... more
ECM does not cover a short, AMS does not cover enough
suggest new name : LRMWARRIOR

[Uklistan]

BAP/cAP should be 225m - not 180 or 360 or 250, just enough to counter ECM in brawl range. Making them out to 360m did 2 tings - killed ECM's ability to get you INTO brawl range (brawl range really being 270-300ish meters to start one), and well it make clan streaks OVERPOWERED.

Example:

AS7-D-DC vs SCR-streak boat. Atlas can really engage at 270m - SCR can now engage at 360m AS7<SCR every time.

Yo Paul & Russ; Change Active Probes to 225-250m please. It make more sense this way.

[DarkonFullPower]

Widowmaker1981, on 07 November 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

ECM has a 200m bubble where if an enemy mech is inside it, it cannot target ANYTHING, regardless of the target being under ECM or not, it gets flashing target boxes/arrows and 'low sensors' warning.

You got it backwards. This is how the 200m range works.

Over 200m away or higher = Cannot target.
Between 180m - 200m = You CAN target the ECM mech, and are NOT being jammed.
(Note: the 200m can be extended to 250m if you have BAP or the Target Range Modue, 300m if you have both.)

What you are discribing was the 150m to 180m range. Close enough to jam the Mech, but far enough away to not be jamed by BAP. This is why people are saying the BAP jam range should be 180m instead of 200m.

It's clear though that the reason why it's 360m it because of SRM Streeks + Weapon Range + Quirks. The debate now is do Streaks NEED this support?

To give some numbers to work with, should BAP's jam range be:
180m (enough to block ECM's effective range completely)
270m (enough for base Streaks)
297 or 300m (enough for Streaks + Weapon range 5 or a Mech Quirk, but not both)

EDIT: The longest range SSRM can go is on a Locust LCT-3S (+30%) with Weapon Range 5 (+10%)
270m x 1.4 = 378m
LAWL even uber BAP can't keep up. PGI, BAP to 400m plz.

Edited by DarkonFullPower, 07 November 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Nemesis Duck]

Bye bye Kit Fox, the only viable clan light. It was fun playing something different than arena shooter, but you've been heavily nerfed, handle like a slug and now you're nothing but a liability to your group.

ECM was a game in of itself. To do it right you had to pay more attention to your group than the enemies. But that mini game is not fun now. I understand and totally agree that facing an ECM'ed team without an ECM unit yourself was not fair, and should've been fixed, just not so radically.

[Widowmaker1981]

DarkonFullPower, on 07 November 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

You got it backwards. This is how the 200m range works.

Over 200m away or higher = Cannot target.
Between 180m - 200m = You CAN target the ECM mech, and are NOT being jammed.
(Note: the 200m can be extended to 250m if you have BAP or the Target Range Modue, 300m if you have both.)

What you are discribing was the 150m to 180m range. Close enough to jam the Mech, but far enough away to not be jamed by BAP. This is why people are saying the BAP jam range should be 180m instead of 200m.

It's clear though that the reason why it's 360m it because of SRM Streeks + Weapon Range + Quirks. The debate now is do Streaks NEED this support?

To give some numbers to work with, should BAP's jam range be:
180m (enough to block ECM's effective range completely)
270m (enough for base Streaks)
297 or 300m (enough for Streaks + Weapon range 5 or a Mech Quirk, but not both)

EDIT: The longest range SSRM can go is on a Locust LCT-3S (+30%) with Weapon Range 5 (+10%)
270m x 1.4 = 378m
LAWL even uber BAP can't keep up. PGI, BAP to 400m plz.

yeah, fair enough - i probably did have it wrong. BAP Jam range should be 180 - 225 at most then imo

and clan streaks + lvl 5 range module have 396m range btw (360 base + 36 for lvl 5 module)

[F4T 4L]

Foxfire, on 04 November 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

To avoid actually addressing ECM.

Incorrect.

This is precisely an attempt to balance ecm.

It may well not be the fix that you personally want, that's by the by.