107 replies to this topic

[Asmosis]

It means an agile LRM boat can use BAP to fight a slower ECM mech like the atlas. It was possible before with sensor range boost just extremely difficult.

So, basically this change says "ECM no longer blocks ssrms" right? tough luck for ecm lights I guess.

Edited by Asmosis, 08 November 2014 - 03:40 PM.

[TheDissolver]

ACTUAL PATCH FEEDBACK FOLLOWS
Dunno if the devs read these posts, but the "pro tip" on the map loading splash screen related to BAP wasn't changed to reflect the new numbers.


FWIW I would prefer if BAP wasn't a 100% counter to ECM (maybe counter only the targeting effects? Only counter minimap? Require LOS to counter? not sure what the answer is.)
After playing in a support role with ECM for a month, I've been using non-ECM variant scout/support mechs (SDR and CDA) in the past two weeks and I've got to say without BAP I'd feel like ECM was lacking in counters. With the boosted BAP range, it may seem too big a nerf, but in the solo PUG drops I've played today it doesn't seem like anyone has caught on; plenty of effective ECM tactics were still working. I did feel like my BAP was working well to sniff out scouts and spotters, but I already felt that way to a lesser degree so maybe it's confirmation bias. [shrug]

[Xoxim SC]

BAP right now is a big ass problem. The radius needs to be cut down to 250ish.

[Boyka]

senaiboy, on 04 November 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

Because ECM is not supposed to be a brawling equipment. It should be used to hide yourself while scouting, or shield your teammates while mobilising. Not running circles around an enemy and preventing them from using SSRMs/LRMs (non-ECM lights don't have this advantage anyway and they still work fine - cue Jenners). ECM causes you to lose lock immediately, so the 'safety margin' is actually more significant than just a 20m rim for ECM vs BAP.

Yeah like the Adders and all the ECMless KitFoxes.. Cough cough.. they working very well, in fact everyone uses them.. Cough cough..

By the way 360mt seem to be excessive, 180mt like the ECM range would be fine to me.

Edited by Boyka, 09 November 2014 - 01:13 PM.

[Boyka]

Asmosis, on 08 November 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

It means an agile LRM boat can use BAP to fight a slower ECM mech like the atlas. It was possible before with sensor range boost just extremely difficult.

So, basically this change says "ECM no longer blocks ssrms" right? tough luck for ecm lights I guess.

Problem is bigger if we consider Clan Streak max range is 360mt.. It's time to use the Stormcrow Streak-boat configuration..

[B0oN]

OP ?
People were crying for it because they could not be asked to watch their screens properly and carefully even if their "virtual"lifes depended on it when they were playing a robot brandishing,military-themed, team-oriented sluggish FPS .
This is mechwarrior, not some random "AAA" title FPS, so :
No ! It´s not just some random game where you join, pull the trigger often enough and are "KING"
No ! It´s not easy, neither as a theme, as a background, a hobby, a code to live by or a game.
No ! It´s not instantly molly-coddling you just because you were able to find some button.

ECM already had it´s balances : eyes (mk1 type), bap, er/ppc´s, tag-lasers, narc and destroying either whole ECM-carrier or just ECM-carrying side of carrier , so why the permanent question to nerf ECM, hm ? (if you can answer this rhetorical question with YES, look above at "No! .... ")


Pffff, for softening up ´any and ´erryting in ´tis gaem

[Lightfoot]

L-O-K-I. The Loki is the first Heavy with ECM and it's almost here. The Hellbringer is a very nice mech that carries alot so it will be very popular, ECM and all.

[MindWalk3r]

This ecm nerf is completely ridiculous, even given that this game is unofficially still in beta with the constant modifications. Put aside the drastic change overnight, your now expecting a 30-35ton light to spend 3 tons on ecm when ANY tonnage mech can use BAP for 1.5 tons and counter it with twice the range another ecm in counter mode can do ? Im new to this game, but if this is the game dev's decision fine. Think a few steps down the line tho, half the light drivers are gonna disappear (if ur lucky), and if this is the state of things, why even have ecm at all let alone new mechs with it ? when half the enemy team is sporting baps, why waste twice the weight, ecm will become the flamer everyone removes from their mech. Not to mention the drastic change to gameplay this has initiated to lrm usage even with the minor nerf to their damage. But who am i to argue, even though ive read countless posts and hours of video to figure this game out, i havent even been playin 2 months. Being that as it is i recently bought a light, my second mech due to high wait times in medium que after scarecrow then ferret. Chose this light mech to be able to contribute to the team as a novice player when my damage was quite low. Well, after quite a bit of saving/grinding then leveling up 3 spider variants to elite the ecm model, the role and purpose of the mech is now completely useless. Im not trying to impose my will and return mechanics of game to when i started, but if this is the new direction then i would like to be reimbursed the 15 million cbills roughly, i used to buy 3 units plus the max engine and upgrades for ecm unit. I would also appreciate something extra for the waste in time and effort promoting this game, but competely not necessary. Now before the sheep chime in about not rocking the boat, disclaimers, not saying lights are completely worthless (my first mech was a medium), but for me a light without ecm is just a single shot away from death. And everyone knows the few ecm model mechs out there are usually the weakest hardpoints and usually without jump jets. Im sure the jenners and embers out there will have no problems rackin up kills without ecm.

Edited by MindWalk3r, 10 November 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[senaiboy]

Isn't ECM only 1.5 tons? It should never have been implemented the way it was, and a lot of people have been saying that from the start. Now that some players have got so used to it, any nerf becomes "too much". 1.5 tons should NOT have given one that huge an advantage in the first place.

Just look at any ECM mech and compare to their non-ECM variants. The advantage of having ECM over the rest is too obvious, to the point seeing a Raven-2x or 4x is almost unheard of for example. Even you MindWalk3r, imply non-ECM variants are just there to elite the ECM mech.

The alternative to having more counters to ECM is to dial ECM's functionality way back. Would that be a better option?

Edit: Btw, if one of the enemy team equipped BAP - that's 1.5 tons they used up. Fair exchange, no? If half the enemy team equipped it, that's 9.5 tons less firepower/heatsinks/ammo just to counter 1.5 ton.

Edited by senaiboy, 11 November 2014 - 02:48 PM.

[Asmosis]

Its not so much the 1.5 tons.

If it were simply that, any mech could use it. The mechs that have ECM sacrifice a lot more than just the 1.5 tons. Spiders sacrifice 20km/hr and weapon hardpoints, atlas sacrifices 2nd energy hardpoint in each arm etc.

What I would like to see is baps ability to detect shutdown mechs extended to the same range as w/e they settle on for ecm blockage.

[Bigbacon]

My sort of complaint to this is.

very few mechs can carry ECM and most of them are lights where 1.5 tons is a lot.

Any mech can caarry bap and the weight isn't that much. the 360 range pretty much nullifies ECM pretty quickly into most matches when there is anyone carrying BAP, which seems to be A LOT of mechs anymore (clans get it better BTW with 1 slot 1 ton)

Maybe try reducing the BAP range to like 240-250.

Least for me using my ECM support lights, Pretty much I am getting the red X ECM icon pretty much all the time anymore once the fighting starts. before you'd get that mid to late when the close range brawling is going on. There is no counter for me as ECM now as I can't counter BAP only other ECM and since everything can have BAP, ECM is only useful in the early game now.

Edited by Bigbacon, 12 November 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[senaiboy]

Asmosis, on 12 November 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

Its not so much the 1.5 tons.

If it were simply that, any mech could use it. The mechs that have ECM sacrifice a lot more than just the 1.5 tons. Spiders sacrifice 20km/hr and weapon hardpoints, atlas sacrifices 2nd energy hardpoint in each arm etc.

What I would like to see is baps ability to detect shutdown mechs extended to the same range as w/e they settle on for ecm blockage.

The fact that even with those handicap ECM mechs are still the most popular (and effective) variant speak for itself, doesn't it?

I don't disagree that BAP (and TAG, NARC, PPC, UAV) has made ECM technically useless. But the solution to the issue isn't to restore ECM functionality back. It is to fix the broken MWO game mechanics that is "electronic warfare" in the first place.

According to the Devs, MWO's way of implementing ECM was meant to discourage the players from just sniping each other from long range all match, by allowing undetected team movement and flanking manoeuvres. Now that we have 12v12 (in small maps), NARCs, and UAVs, that explanation does not hold water anymore.

Edited by senaiboy, 12 November 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Bigbacon]

ECM is all but useless now except to just run around in counter mode or hope to shield someone who is straggling like at the beginning of river city or shield a sniper who doesn't want to be with thr group OR the dual LL sniper style of play. It is mainly useful for early game.

I don't know how many are carrying BAP but it sure seems like a majority now is. Any mech can take it, it doesn't weigh a lot and anything outside of light class it isn't a hindrance to slap on there.

Every round I play now with an ECM mech it is just constant red "X" and the only thing I can do is switch to counter.

It is almost at the point that tonnage used to carry ECM just isn't worth it as I can't really help me team with it any longer.

Tag, Narc, and UAV were nice counters to ECM, BAP was also but with the greatly extended range, it just doesn't hold true anymore.

take a map like manifold, get a single mech in the middle (top or bottom) with BAP and any ECM near the center is countered. You are nearly countered once you leave the outer ring.

Lots of the other maps are like this also, you can't even hide movements because all it takes is a single BAP to be 360 or less and its countered. Least 180m meant you needed to get into the danger zone to help unmask the enemy, now you just stand back and no worries.

Edited by Bigbacon, 12 November 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[MindWalk3r]

@senaiboy
my bad, ecm is 1.5 tons, my point still holds, ecm is nearly pointless(only due to fact everyone hasnt caught on yet), so when im shaving off .5 ton jj's on my spider to b able to have 6 or 7 tons of weapons, 1.5 tons is massive. But to a 50T medium or greater that has a 50+ point alpha, taking a few mediums off is no big thing for the colossal advantage off countering all ecm in a 360m area. Now ur also citing popularity, however ur citing popularity of ecm units over their variants with the old mechanic, give the change a bit of time, some havent caught on yet how useless it is. As far as how u feel about ecm, thats obvious, if u even own an ecm mech its rarely taken out. Im sensing sniper lrm builds are ur bread and butter, so ur obviously a biased source of information. I on the other hand stated point blank, return it -fine, dont return it - fine, just reimburse my time and effort properly. Now on a totally subjective side (remove facts), i do believe nerf was over done. However im of the belief that theres too much of the "Long game" playing out, which is fine for new players having trouble centering crosshairs with the adrenaline pumping. But not for the veterans that are still running in gauss jagers and such. I enjoy tactics of the battlefield and brawling at medium to short range, thats my opinion. If the higher ups dont feel that way, fine, reimbursement would be appreciated for a customer looking at promoting ur game.
Id also like to agree with bigbacon's comments, i kept running my light even tho it seemed to bug out and show red 80% of the time and i wasnt able to shield teammates anymore till i found out the reason. In solo play, there are times u dont see ecm, but its rare, at least one or 2 mechs carry it. Is it because ecm is still worthwhile ? no, they just havent figured out about bap, or havent run into it enough. But im sure in team play, ecm is gone, one or 2 mechs with bap is all thats needed to let the rain begin. Give it some time and sensai and friends will b asking for more maps with cover for their 12 lrm vs 12 lrm fights. should be fun.

Edited by MindWalk3r, 12 November 2014 - 01:05 PM.

[senaiboy]

Everyone is a little biased, whether you admit it or not.

However, on the contrary, I do not have a single preference to mech build. In over 400 hours since Closed Beta I've tried it all and lived through several LRMpocalypses. And I know well enough to always bring TAG and BAP with my LRM boats even before this, so ECM mechs are not a problem. ECM is NOT meant to be a counter to LRMs, it is a counter to information sharing (Information Warfare^tm). This is very commonly misunderstood.

Don't worry about BAP's counter range though, I can safely bet it will be reduced in the next patch. The number of BAPs (solely for countering ECM) will also reduce as the number of ECMs reduce.

I'm basically whining about if ECM had been implemented appropriately in the first place, all this counters wouldn't have been necessary. ECM is my least liked game mechanics and so easily abused (I can't count how many times that last light ECM mech hides in a corner of the map or runs around all match just taking potshots).

If you don't believe me, my flavour of the year are brawler mechs Jester and Quickdraws so do think before 'accusing' anyone. Didn't say I was good at MWO though!

Edited by senaiboy, 12 November 2014 - 04:40 PM.

[Bigbacon]

yes it is an information blocking system which in term helps as a counter to lock on weapons.

i also do hope it is reduced because as said, ECM just doesn't have a place now unless they want to make BAP a required slot on a mech like ECM which actually wouldn't be a half bad idea (or command console)

[Wesxander]

BAP is now over powered with the right modules it range is increased to far. Right after patch my ecm light was jammed from range 500 not 360. This is due to module upgrades etc. Currently there is no way to boost ECM range so all the arguments this is fair is highly un balanced.
While BAP was under powered in past now it forces lights away from their support role with ECM. Seeing how some match maker games like to put 2 BAPS with 4 ECM mechs and then give the other side just 1 ECM mech it makes for a very very un balanced game. Before you say that does not happen, on days when I play my ECM light I see this kind of make up in match maker about 4 times out of 20. It drives you nuts trying to shield your whole company while the other side loses 2 ECM mechs and stlll is ECM shielded and countering your ECM.
TAG at range can counter a stupid ECM mech. NARC can as well (As it should if the ECM mech is dumb enough to get NARC'd in first place.) NOW instead of rock, paper, scissors style play here comes MEGA BAP well past range 360 counter ECM at every point. ADD in match maker saying ECM, NARC, TAG, and BAP do not matter and you get a huge un balanced game.
RANGE on BAP should been adjusted to 280 ish to take account of modules and other items that boost it's ability's and the fact that match maker thinks 4 ECM equipped company is the same as the 1 ECM mech company on the other side.
Quick scouting lock at range 500 (HALF the range of LRMS seems fair enough in many the shooters minds) The reality is ECM support of your unit when you are single ECM light is now impossible.

Edited by Wesxander, 12 November 2014 - 06:32 PM.

[Wesxander]

As far as ECM compared to MechWarrior online. This is same game that give weapons ranges past 1000 (reserved as LRM max range with only 5 weapons in Regular BT able to out range it) to just about every weapon out there. AC 20 in Battle tech does not do half damage out to range 550 like some AC 20 units do. ECM in the military will often prevent locks from missiles or if the lock does happen jam it with chaff or radar spoofing. Example's of this would be AWAC's and electronic warfare pods carried by jet fighters. Before you start going off on me about AWAC's and electronic warfare pods being nothing like battle tech keep in mind many of you insist from infantry training that AC 20's should be able to way out shoot past their effective range. Battle tech had explained that while AC 20 might actually be effective at destroying un armored targets past that range the effect it would have on diamond composite armor (what battle mechs carry) is negligible. If you are going throw out some game cannon ranges (which is ok to some extent to make a better live action shooter) then don't go complaining that ECM jamming is not matching cannon for the Battle tech game.

[senaiboy]

BAP counter does not extend beyond 360m. There is nothing in patch notes that state otherwise. I've just been using my Commando-2D and I cannot find evidence of your claims. I also find it is quite exaggerating to say providing ECM cover is impossible now.

Advanced sensor range did not extend BAP counter, even prior to the buff. All it does is increase the range you can target ECM mechs.
http://mwomercs.com/...d-sensor-range/

Those who actually compare MWO to BattleTech are those who still refuse to accept that numbers on papers do not corresponds to FPS. Those who say ECM should be redesigned are not the same group of people.

MWO's ECM was supposed to add in another game balance mechanics for deeper tactical play, but it is badly implemented - the side with more ECM has a higher chance of winning, the mech with ECM is more effective than non-ECM, etc. This resulted in the multiple counters to ECM to rein in its usability, and this is where we are at now. One may argue that ECM is finally not a significant determining factor in winning or losing at this point.

Edited by senaiboy, 12 November 2014 - 07:29 PM.

[MindWalk3r]

this thread has nothing to do with TT in any concrete way. This has to do with balancing a strategic FPS with hundreds of moving parts that all play a role. Currently BAP has upset the balance catastrophically, if it stays as is, other pieces would need to be shifted to compensate (drastically). Hard to understand the nerf really, theres so many counters to ecm as is. Tag, narc, and the tuffest one was an opposing light in counter mode. 360m bap counter makes no sense, even 180m and ur now making an ecm in counter worthless? But really lets get down to brass tax, we're talking bout 4 weight classes that need to be balanced in such a way that each brings something vital to the table, and is viable as well as fun to play. Might be tuff for matchmaker to setup a match where it needs 2-3 lights and no one wants to pilot em, so everybody waits, and waits. ECM helped lights and made the game more realistic as well as gave them a role in group warfare.

Now senaiboy, singled u out because ur not bringing anything to this thread. Ur modus operandi consists of compartmentalizing an aspect of someones statement and deconstructing it. Anyone that takes the time to comment on this thread has experienced in game the effects of the extended BAP and knows that walking into battle is the only time u dont have an X thru ecm, so EFFECTIVELY ecm does not work anywhere in the same zip code as a BAP unit. Update was recent and not everyone takes the time to read the forums or even play daily, so many are unaware and play as if nothing changed.

Now if ECM is effectively removed from game as is the warcry, lights will either need to be removed if light pilots dwindle to much, or all lights will need major revamps. Max speed engines, new hard points, lightened equipment and/or weapons are just a few ways of bridging the gap. Hard to say what the end result will be when your talking about hundreds of puzzle pieces being shifted, the entire scene will change.