32 replies to this topic

[Tastian]

I love the majority of the Quirks but some make no sense. This one is the biggest offender imho. Please reconsider the Flame Quirks. This is why:

1) The Flame is NOT Tier 3. I have no idea who decided this but it is as bad as every other Dragon.

2) The Flame does NOT have an AC20 stock. So why are the Quirks only for the AC20?

3) The Flame is the *only* Dragon with an ERLarge Laser. So why does the 1C, 1N, and 5N all have ERLarge Laser Quirks and the Flame does not?

4) Dragons NEED speed - a fat XL engine. Putting an AC20 on the Flame makes it slow. Not even the extra armor can save it. If you want an AC20, bring a Hunchback, Shadowhawk, Jagermech, or Cataphract. The Flame is worse then any other mech that can mount an AC20.

5) The AC20 Quirks are bad. The AC20 Quirks for velocity and range are much worse then fire rate or heat generation and therefore don't even help.

6) Buff something that makes it useful. Buff Medium Lasers, Large Lasers, ERLarge Lasers, AC10, LB10X, or Gauss. But please buff something useful.

7) Wasted money on a Hero. Dragons have always been the underdogs but at one time they had a few pilots that loved them. This was about the time that the Flame and Fang came out and I rejoiced. The Flame became my goto mech. But it has been collecting dust for almost a year now. Please look at it.

[Sereglach]

I've got to agree with this one. Sure, it only has one ballistic hardpoint, but that's why I expected to see an AC10 or LBX-10 quirk on the mech. Trust me, if it would have had that, I would have scooped it up in a heartbeat and finally spent the money on it.

On the other hand, I was more than a little confused over the fact that the Cataphract 1X got the AC10 quirk while most builds I've seen are an AC20 and a bunch of medium lasers. It almost felt like the two mechs got their quirks backwards.

Oh well, it is a first pass and we can expect to see some tuning. Overall I love the quirk system.

[Clydewinder]

Flame weapon quirks largely irrelevant. Mech is still much better now with the strengthening of centre torso.

[Tastian]

Clydewinder, on 05 November 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

Flame weapon quirks largely irrelevant. Mech is still much better now with the strengthening of centre torso.

So your argument is that since the Flame got a +24 CT armor buff for its outrageously easy to hit pot belly, we should not care if it receives any other quirk? How about the fact that every Dragon has massive rate of fire increases for ERLarge Lasers and Ballistics EXCEPT the Flame even though its the only one with an ACTUAL ERLarge laser?

[cSand]

Been playing these mechs for years, they do just fine

if you can't play it before, any amount of quirks isn't gonna help you now.

Hate to say it but... get better yo

[HammerMaster]

Sereglach, on 05 November 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

I've got to agree with this one. Sure, it only has one ballistic hardpoint, but that's why I expected to see an AC10 or LBX-10 quirk on the mech. Trust me, if it would have had that, I would have scooped it up in a heartbeat and finally spent the money on it.

On the other hand, I was more than a little confused over the fact that the Cataphract 1X got the AC10 quirk while most builds I've seen are an AC20 and a bunch of medium lasers. It almost felt like the two mechs got their quirks backwards.

Oh well, it is a first pass and we can expect to see some tuning. Overall I love the quirk system.

Agreed on the Cataphract 1X. My go to version was Gauss and MLAS. Then the Gauss Nerf/chargeup change put that on mothballs for me. The end is many Mechs are many things to many people. While I like the quirks, and certainly DISAGREE on some of them (Locust 1v getting ERLLAS to make it "competitive"), They should have a quirk set this also benefits the stock load out ESPECIALLY if they have to make it competitive by applying quirks that just don't seem right to you or I.

[Tastian]

cSand, on 05 November 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Been playing these mechs for years, they do just fine

if you can't play it before, any amount of quirks isn't gonna help you now.

Hate to say it but... get better yo

I'm not sure what ELO bracket you are in, but in higher brackets, the Dragons are nonexistent (before the Quirks). And I was one of the pilots that melted face in them back in the day. But this is not a peen contest; this is about the Flame Quirks. They make no sense at all for the reasons I listed above. Usable Dragon builds all include 300XL to 360 XL engines cause it plays well as a fast striker, not a brawler. I would love to hear you argue any reason I listed why the initial Flame Quirks are fine the way they are.

Edited by Tastian, 05 November 2014 - 02:03 PM.

[Clydewinder]

Tastian, on 05 November 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

So your argument is that since the Flame got a +24 CT armor buff for its outrageously easy to hit pot belly, we should not care if it receives any other quirk? How about the fact that every Dragon has massive rate of fire increases for ERLarge Lasers and Ballistics EXCEPT the Flame even though its the only one with an ACTUAL ERLarge laser?

No, my argument is that the Flame already was the best Dragon out there... and even if you don't want to run an AC20 on it, the quirk still makes it a better mech. If you want to run ER Large, you are better off with a 1C or a Fang or a 1N anyway.

[Tastian]

However good anyone thinks the Flame is compared to the other Dragons, the Quirks don't make sense. Why give three Dragons with NO ERLarge Lasers, Quirks that buff ERLarge Lasers and ignore the Flame's stock ERLarge Laser? And why give a mech that is highly dependent on XL engines a Quirk that only affects non-XL builds? This is as bad as the AC20 Quirk on the Arrow. It would be like giving an AC20 quirk to the Raven 4x. Sure you can do it, and its fun although situational; it makes no sense.

[Lukoi Banacek]

The quirks match my preferred build extremely well. The Dragon's torso mounted ac20 with a bunch of MLs is actually a highly effective build in the right hands (altho not in comp play except in the hands of an extremely good pilot in tonnage/tech restricted conditions). Its one of the only dragon builds that runs well without an XL.

OP I get yer opinion on the subject but its based on your preferences for the Flame not some sort of synergy that could accomplished otherwise.

[Kreisel]

I'm HIGHLY disappointed with the Flame quirks. The AC20 build on the Dragon feels more like a 'gimmick' build. We stuck an AC20 on it just because we could and no other Dragon can... It's only any good because the AC20 itself hits so hard but there is no advantage to doing that over taking a Hunchback or Yen-lo-wang and it certainly doesn't give the mech a unique feel. Heavy Mechs that can mount a AC20 (and do so more effectively) are not in short supply. It doesn't focus at all on the theme or feel of the mech, or what makes the Dragon special.

I'm disappointed the at energy weapon focused Flame got 2 out of it's 3 buffs to a weapon that is of questionable use on this mech. It might be workable, but it's not the mech's highest potential. What made the Flame the best Dragon was the 4 energy hardpoints in the arms with a huuuge range of movement, effective for keeping a full laser burn on moving targets like light mechs, and the ballistic hardpoint being set high on the shoulder allowed you to take long range shoots just peeking over hills a little bit.

You can't really take advantage of hill peeking well with the AC20's limited range.... and the loss of the XL engine makes the mech underwhelming in so many other ways.

Some of the more common and powerful Flame builds don't even USE the Ballistic hardpoint. 4 LL was by far one of the most popular flame builds when it first came out and still one of the more effective ways to run it.

What REALLY disappoints me is that the AC20 is only one potential build for the Flame, but all 4 Energy hard points are used in every single Flame build. PGI could have give the Dragon Laser quirks that would have been every bit as helpful to the AC20 Flame as they are to all other builds you can make with the Flame. The Flame is not "about the ac20" it's "about the 4 lasers in the arms with some of the best movement in the game." Seriously it's hard to match the Dragon for arms with as large a movement range and speed, which makes them ideal for lasers. Laser heat reduction would have been awesome for every potential build you can make with the Flame (including the AC20).

Generic ballistic range, and either ML, LL or ER-LL heat and duration reduction would have been great. It would make the AC20 build every bit as strong as it is with the current buffs (I'd argue even better than the AC20 buffs make it) AND it would have lifted lots of other Flame builds... including the stock build onto a more competitive standing.

Flame builds I'm aware of:
-4 LL, 350XL Engine
-4 LL & a S-SRM2 XL engine
-4x LL, AC2
-2 LL, 2 ML, AC10
-2 LL, AC10
-2 ERLL, 2 ML, AC2, SRM4, XL300
-2 ERLL, 2 ML, AC5, XL300
-4 ML, LBX10, SRM6 XL Engine
-4 ML, AC10, SRM6 XL Engine
-4 ML, SSRM2, AC/10, XL350
-4 ML, UAC5, 325xl
-4 ML, UAC5, SRM6, 300xl
-4 MPL, SRM6, MG, 350xl
-4 MPL, SRM6 XL360
-4 MPL, SRM6, AC5 XL325
-2 PPC, 2 ML, SRM6
-1 ERPPC, 3 ML, LRM10, XL360
-2 PPC, 2 MPL, SSRM2, XL300
-2 ERPPC, AC5, 2 ML
-AC20, 4 ML, Standard engine
-Gauss, 4 ML 360XL
-Stock (at least until you can afford the XL Engine and Endo to DO anything with it)

number of builds current quirks significantly help: 1
Number of builds Laser based quirks would significantly help: ALL OF THEM... (over 20)

Edited by Kreisel, 06 November 2014 - 02:40 AM.

[Tastian]

Thanks Kreisel for making that list; I was JUST about to do that exact same thing. As you pointed out, the AC20 is a gimmick build; it might even be someone's FAVORITE build; but it makes no sense for a Dragon. Of ALL the reasonable builds, the AC20 Quirk *ONLY* helps one build; and it doesn't even help it in a good way (velocity and range). Please, PGI, reconsider the Quirks on the Flame. Quirk something that is stock: Med Lasers or ERLarge Laser.

[Bigbacon]

quirks are fine for me. AC20 + 4ML

[James DeGriz]

Have to agree.. whilst I do think the IS quirks are great in both what they've been set out to do and what they actually give us, there have been one or two questionable decisions on which quirks were awarded to certain mechs. I think the Flame is probably the worst example of that. A DRGs biggest strength is its speed. Big nose, and traditional small Side torsos (tho sadly not since they got "Fixed") means that it's XL all the way. As Kriesel rightly says, if you have a build that uses that shoulder ballistic slot, the one gun you don't put in it is an AC20!

[Bilaz]

Have always run flame with ac20 and 4ml. Tried something different, just dont work.

From stats, all from pug:
archived : FLAME 546 291 246 1.18 (win/loss) 729 283 2.58 (k/d) 174,178 (average damage per match 319) 421,840 2 days 09:15:35
current: FLAME 55 39 15 2.60 (win/loss) 84 26 3.23 (k/d) 20,494 (average damage per match 372) 56,556 06:31:24

I know i'm average player at best - but ac20 on flame works imo better than any other setup i've tried. Sure maybe quirks not so super attractive, but still better than nothing.

[Kamies]

My first hero mech was Flame and I have played with it a lot. Some of my friends had Flames too and almost every one of them had used AC20+4ML for fun. No one thought that it was a good build, just fun. I never tried it because dragons are not brawlers.

What did I use? Well of course 4xERLL or 2xLL+2ERLL because Flame is the only dragon that has every energy slot in the arms making it easy to shoot them. Left mouse button for left hand lasers, right mouse button for right hand lasers. Easy and n00b friendly.

So no ERLL buffs for Flame but meaningless buffs for a fun build. Great!

[Diablo Intercepter]

The ERLL buffs on the other dragons make sense when you look at what other weapons were given quarks.
5N-ac 2 (3 ac 2s + ERLL)
1n-ac 5 (2 ac 5s + 2 ERLL)
1C-gauss (1 gauss + 1-2 ERLL)
I guess the roll they're imagining for those mechs is suppressive fire/sniper rolls.
The Flame buffs don't mesh with what I would have considered a good flame build. I expected it to get something close to what the Fang got. The dragon is a mech that you should run a xl in, you're always going to die because of that huge CT. wasting that "advantage" on an ac 20 seems like a poor trade to me. An ac 10 + srm works just as well :/

[Ryokens leap]

Agree with OP. I've been squawking for years that an XL Dragon with an AC20 arm is needed. Look how great the YLW is, could have buffed the Fang for this purpose but sadly no.

[Kreisel]

Bilaz, on 06 November 2014 - 06:38 AM, said:

Have always run flame with ac20 and 4ml. Tried something different, just dont work.

From stats, all from pug:
archived : FLAME 546 291 246 1.18 (win/loss) 729 283 2.58 (k/d) 174,178 (average damage per match 319) 421,840 2 days 09:15:35
current: FLAME 55 39 15 2.60 (win/loss) 84 26 3.23 (k/d) 20,494 (average damage per match 372) 56,556 06:31:24

I know i'm average player at best - but ac20 on flame works imo better than any other setup i've tried. Sure maybe quirks not so super attractive, but still better than nothing.

That could come down to personal play style, do we really want the quirks on the mech to be limited to only one playstyle when the quirks could help that playstyle and every other way to play the mech. The AC20 4ML can stillrun hot right? It USES those 4 ML for a significant portion of it's damage in a brawl. Wouldn't that mech be better off with generic increased ballistic range plus Medium laser Heat reduction and Medium laser Duration?

Just because that is the build that worked for you doesn't mean it's the best build for everyone. Personally I never liked or did well with the AC20 Build on the Dragon. On the other hand one of the best games I have ever played was in a Flame with XL300, 2EL, 2ML, AC2 and SRM4, 17DHS, FF, Endo: 6 Kills, 2 of them earning the Brawler reward, 6 Assists, 8 Competent destructions, ~750 Damage, top damage on my team. I consistently do 350+ damage in it, on a low or bad game I'll still put out around 275 Damage and often pick up a kill even when my team gets 12 to 2 stomped. And that's without Weapon Modules. Based on my play style it's actually one of my favorite mechs to play.

Let me be clear I'm not arguing for changes to the Flame quirks because the one build I personally play doesn't benefit much from these quirks, I'm arguing because almost ever single build you can make with this mech, save one does not benefit from anything more than the CT, ST buffs and and laser duration.

And a side note that side torso buff makes the Flame the MOST XL friendly dragon because it's 6 More damage to that side torso before death than any other Dragon.

If it had even been only one buff to the AC20 I could understand (I'd still be disappointed but feel it was reasonable), but 2/3?

Edited by Kreisel, 06 November 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Kanigit]

Agree with OP. Perhaps they should just give the Dragons general "ballistic" and "energy" bonuses if they are not going to enhance the stock loadouts.

I'm generally thrilled with the quirk system, it's a great idea and in some cases implemented pretty darn well. It was a bit of a disappointment that one of my favorite chassis didn't see the same love that it needs. Looking forward to future tweaks to the system.

Happy meching.