179 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Fate 6, on 07 June 2015 - 05:40 AM, said:

*unless the map is alpine

I don't find issues with being caught out alone on Alpine, but it is sometimes the case that the slow lance can't make it to the fight in time leaving your 8 allies to fight 12 of the enemy.


A lot of this being left behind issue was also alleviated a bit once they stopped randomly comprising lances and instead began matching lance mates by tonnage categories.


It's one thing to catch a lone assault with 3 or 4 lights after his fast allies have run off, it's quite another for that same lance of light mechs to try and deal with 3 or 4 assaults facing them head on.



There is a lot of dumb though.

There is no real reason for every match to go counter clockwise, the reason most teams go counter clockwise ... is because that's what they've seen before. It's almost Pavlovian.

The primary reason to go counter clockwise is when your team has mostly right side biased mechs. (which in a typical solo pug group, no one really knows who has what)


If you have a bunch of Misery's it would make no sense to go counter.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 June 2015 - 07:10 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

Yes it is.

[InspectorG]

aniviron, on 05 November 2014 - 06:03 PM, said:

Corollary: If you are in a slow mech and you think you're not going to be able to get to your teammates in time to avoid getting swarmed and killed early, tell your team to come help. 100% of the time whales complain about being left behind in games I'm in, they didn't tell me that they were piloting a mech that can't do 50, and they didn't ask for help. If you ask for help, I always come over and give it, because that's how games are won; and generally either the light or medium lance is more than happy to come assist their fatties, because it means good cover for them too. The rest of your team isn't psychic; as OP points out, some whales have no problem keeping up because they know how to move efficiently. If you don't, it's your job to ask for help.

If you can't move and you won't ask for help, stop complaining about getting left behind. You clearly know how to type because you're whining in chat, maybe put those typing skills to use before the game goes sour instead of after next time.

I ask my Pugs to NOT rabbit run all over the map in random directions.

Compliance can be...spotty.

I dont BOTHER them to ask to help a whale. If a light is smart enough to escort...great.

If not...i know the price of admission to pilot a Whale.

[InspectorG]

Jman5, on 05 November 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

.

I LARGELY agree.

But...Sometimes you get a late start thanks to Time Warner.

Sometimes some Locusts or Commandos just get to you first.

Sometimes you spawn Alpine and your lance starts in BF Iowa...2 enemy lances incoming and the rest of your team is camping way over by the radio tower...


DO NOT EXPECT SUPPORT FROM A PUG

IF YOU PILOT A WHALE...YOU KNOW YOUR WEAKNESSES...quit b*tchin. Its not a Timby after all...

[Roadkill]

Fate 6, on 07 June 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

I find the opposite is true, and it also happens more often when our team wins than loses. Friendly assaults die because they lingered too long, entire enemy team dies because our heavies/mediums recognized an opportunity, friendly assaults tell us we're bad for leaving them. In group queue it's even worse because someone always goes "way to leave the assaults" when their group brought 2 Stalkers and our group brought 2 Dire Wolves and our Dire Wolves killed the entire enemy team.

I've been that lone "hero" Dire Wolf before. Sometimes the Dire Wolf lingers deliberately because he can see that the team's heavies and mediums are eating the other team alive. His sacrifice keeps the enemy team divided and results in a team win.

But what I said is still true. If your team's assaults get left behind, more often than not it wasn't their fault. They can't keep up, and as others have already posted they can't just keep running either because they'll get cored from behind ~40 seconds into the match. It's up to the mobile Mechs to keep the team together... or at least tell the assaults what's going on so that they're not wondering why they're being abandoned.

The assault that sits and spins a couple of times before driving into a wall doesn't count. He's no more or less an idiot that the light that charges forward blindly into an entire lance and dies 45 seconds into the match. Both exist, but neither is relevant to this conversation.

[Nightmare1]

@OP: It's because that Dire pilot that's still in the water was watching cat videos on YouTube instead of sitting in his cockpit, ready to move as soon as the match started.

You're forgetting to factor in mental reflex time, lol.

[Tombstoner]

Roadkill, on 07 June 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

I've been that lone "hero" Dire Wolf before. Sometimes the Dire Wolf lingers deliberately because he can see that the team's heavies and mediums are eating the other team alive. His sacrifice keeps the enemy team divided and results in a team win.

But what I said is still true. If your team's assaults get left behind, more often than not it wasn't their fault. They can't keep up, and as others have already posted they can't just keep running either because they'll get cored from behind ~40 seconds into the match. It's up to the mobile Mechs to keep the team together... or at least tell the assaults what's going on so that they're not wondering why they're being abandoned.

The assault that sits and spins a couple of times before driving into a wall doesn't count. He's no more or less an idiot that the light that charges forward blindly into an entire lance and dies 45 seconds into the match. Both exist, but neither is relevant to this conversation.

What i find funny is the OP's use of "standard rotation speed"..... i wonder what that is...? 65 kph. or 50% more then the DW's max run speed.

To many times this weekend i was forced to turn and make a stand walking backwards as our flank was harried by lights, fast mediums and yes even Timber wolfs.....

[Chuck Jager]

It is the responsibility of all team mates to try and meet up. If someone can not manage a deathball, I will support them never having children.

Terra therma and Caustic are the worse for slow mechs. The team will run in one direction separating the assaults, but when they are needed to push they will then turn and go back the other way.

I will say that for every time my Dwolf is left behind there are at least 10 times that I am the first person to get somewhere. I also have a new machine with an SSD, and it makes a big difference loading into the game.

[PhoenixFire55]

I had a match on Caustic where both teams were 'nascaring' ... Well, I was 'nascaring' far ahead of most of my teammates in my DireWolf. When another Dire on our team started crying that we left him behind I told him exactly this ... I spawned in the same lance as you and in a same mech as you and I am leading the charge. Shut your trap and L2P.

95% of times when somebody complains he is left behind it is his own fault. It is not always the case, but it is most often exactly that. When a Dire presses 'W' and never stops he hardly ever has any problems.

[Sarlic]

PhoenixFire55, on 09 June 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

I had a match on Caustic where both teams were 'nascaring' ... Well, I was 'nascaring' far ahead of most of my teammates in my DireWolf. When another Dire on our team started crying that we left him behind I told him exactly this ... I spawned in the same lance as you and in a same mech as you and I am leading the charge. Shut your trap and L2P.

95% of times when somebody complains he is left behind it is his own fault. It is not always the case, but it is most often exactly that. When a Dire presses 'W' and never stops he hardly ever has any problems.

Not really. It depends on the situation.

Your first error is leaving your lance behind. Your second error is that you are Nascar'ring with the team on slow speeds.

When someone calls out a target location of a several enemies inbound and all of your blue little gems decide to flank all at once with a stunning speed while no blue gems are remaining to distract the enemy from the outgoing flank then it's doomed to fail. Because the other team will just go Nascar as well.

With the speed differences from both mixed team, fast clanners en mediums on great speed it's very logic that i get shafted in my 50-60 km/h Atlas. And not to forget the other slow Assaults as the KGC and or the DWF.

This poor mentality won't change, and i get pretty tired of it. I have been screwed over too many times just because all these nice blue gems decide ALL to flank on one side thus leaving me behind as i can't catch up their speed and not to mention the awful rough terrain which takes bumps in the already slow speed

I have been shafted again on Caustic this morning and i shouted out that i got tired of it. It took a scout / spotter and a mech with some missiles to take some Assaults out because they just can't keep up if the blue gems runs away on full speed ahead. It has nothing to do with the poor piloting, situational awareness and more. Some are aware but with the low cover on both sides you can't do much untill they get distracted and or kill the scouter.

Granted: poor map design (and reward system) is one of the reasons, but this PUG mentality is really getting on my nerves lately. (And PUGs who play on their own without thinking about the team).

Hopefully the new map overhauls will push people to think more about their actions instead of blaming Assaults that they whine and should shut it.

Edited by Sarlic, 09 June 2015 - 02:02 AM.

[x Marder x]

Match tactics are decidet where the assoults spawn. Lights medium and hevys move towards the assoults mechs and off you go. 12 mechs win a match not 10 or 8.

[PhoenixFire55]

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

Not really. It depends on the situation.

It always does. However, if we forget about the match in general and focus on the fact that somebody is complaining about being left behind ... I was in same starting spot, in a same mech and I didn't get left behind.

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

Your first error is leaving your lance behind. Your second error is that you are Nascar'ring with the team on slow speeds.

These are PUGs we are talking about. I will always leave my lance behind if I think it benefits our chances of winning the game. There is no point in staying back with your assault lance when it gets caught because you can't be sure they'll be able to do anything, at least 200-300 dmg each, and you can't be sure that your teammates who are sprinting ahead will be able to kill enemy assaults faster than enemy team kills you.

Slow speeds are relative, if my slow speed was enough to catch their teams rear and dish out ~700-800 dmg then it wasn't slow speed at all.

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

When someone calls out a target location of a several enemies inbound and all of your blue little gems decide to flank all at once with a stunning speed while no blue gems are remaining to distract the enemy from the outgoing flank then it's doomed to fail. Because the other team will just go Nascar as well.

If the 'blue gems' are actually shooting and killing enemies at the same time it is a proper course of action. Fast mechs are not build to tank. I can not and will not face a DireWolf head on in my TimberWolf or a Stormcrow. I will flank and hit it in the back on in the rear instead, using those big XL engines to their full extend rather then trot around one spot doing 20 kph and eating artillery strikes together with a bunch of TV sets. Especially so when I do not know if TV sets stopped to make a firing line at the advancing enemy and shoot them or simply because they are stupid.

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

With the speed differences from both mixed team, fast clanners en mediums on great speed it's very logic that i get shafted in my 50-60 km/h Atlas. And not to forget the other slow Assaults as the KGC and or the DWF.

Tell your team to rotate left. If they ignore you find a tight spot where enemies won't be able to come at you all together and start killing them one by one. Most of the time assault mechs tend to spawn in the same lance. 3-4 assaults in a tight alley are more than enough to take down a lance or two. And those assaults will most likely follow you because they are in a same boat.

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

This poor mentality won't change, and i get pretty tired of it. I have been screwed over too many times just because all these nice blue gems decide ALL to flank on one side thus leaving me behind as i can't catch up their speed and not to mention the awful rough terrain which takes bumps in the already slow speed

These are PUGs. As I already said above, I don't know who you are (I mean I do know who YOU are, but I don't know most), I don't know if you are one of those 30 damage assault drivers or 300 damage assault drivers or 900 damage assault drivers, thus I'd rather trust in my own skill then invest my mech into protecting yours. You decide to bring a slow mech you have to understand this and you have to be ready to do your part even when left behind. If you can't, then maybe assaults aren't for you.

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

I have been shafted again on Caustic this morning and i shouted out that i got tired of it. It took a scout / spotter and a mech with some missiles to take some Assaults out because they just can't keep up if the blue gems runs away on full speed ahead. It has nothing to do with the poor piloting, situational awareness and more. Some are aware but with the low cover on both sides you can't do much untill they get distracted and or kill the scouter.

If you got left behind on Caustic it is always ENTIRELY your fault. You can cut through the crater and catch up with your team easy even when doing 48 kph. So, don't ever start talking about getting left behind on Caustic.

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

Granted: poor map design (and reward system) is one of the reasons, but this PUG mentality is really getting on my nerves lately. (And PUGs who play on their own without thinking about the team).

Maps might and might not be poorly designed but they are same for everyone. Why do people like TimberWolf or Stormcrow so much? Because it is the best combination of firepower AND mobility, thus it usually excells in all situations.

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

Hopefully the new map overhauls will push people to think more about their actions instead of blaming Assaults that they whine and should shut it.

Nope. Hopefully not. Because most of the time your assaults start to whine when it is far too late already and they end up with ~50 damage, which all the time tells me that they weren't worth saving anyway. If I see that an assault who got left behind did 500 damage I'll always tell him that he did a good job and probably was a deciding factor in our win by buying us time and doing decent damage as well.

In general. Don't expect anything from a PUG match. You want coordination, proper use of tactics and mechs your team has - find an actual team, either join a unit or group with a bunch of decent random players. All these options are avaliable.

On a side note. In close matches assaults are not meant to survive in the first place. It is heavies and mediums, because of the same thing I said above, unlike slow assaults they will excel in most end game situations.

[Hit the Deck]

x Marder x, on 09 June 2015 - 02:31 AM, said:

Match tactics are decidet where the assoults spawn. Lights medium and hevys move towards the assoults mechs and off you go. 12 mechs win a match not 10 or 8.

This is usually true but not always. Exceptions exist on Alpine and River City Skirmish, for example. On Alpine, you should get to the top of Candy Mountain as fast as possible to hold the position (lazy tactic) and on River City, you should rush B4 to catch the enemy 'mechs (hope for Fatties - will no longer valid as soon as River City v2.0 hits) spawned there if your team spawns on the south side of the map/river delta.

[Sarlic]

Problem is exactly what you are describing: 'Dont expect anything from a PUG match'.

Then what's the point of playing a teambased game? Because if you don't think about your fellow teammembers (apart from the group que) then i can just shoot off your leg for example, because you are in my way and it's a PUG game.

The rewards needs to be improved based on teamplay, because the solo que is just beyond annoying to play. Solo que always frustates me by the amount of derps on cruise control.

Edited by Sarlic, 09 June 2015 - 02:51 AM.

[Bobzilla]

The problem isn't 'it only takes a DW to move to that spot in a minute', it's how far the rest of the team moves in that one minute. I've complained about this before. I wouldn't get stuck in the water, but by the time i've reached the other shore, the rest of the team is reaching the upper. That's getting left behind, and it happens a lot.

Will bad players get caught out of place and blame other things for their bad choices regardless if a DWF or any other mech? Sure, it probably happens '9 times out of 10' but slow mechs do get left behind.

I'd say slow mechs get left behind most of the time, luckily on most maps, it's not an issue because teams usually just run to that one contact point and bunch and poke.

[MechWarrior5152251]

The only map in which 54 kph gets you killed is River City. All PGI has to do to fix this is stop dropping assaults on the left flank of the lower city team.

A common tactic of the high ground team is to light rush the spawn area. I do not load up on back armor and if you turn to fight and none of your team has long range support from the citadel you are dead. Often I will run to the citadel but lose half my CT and STs getting there. And lots of noobs will not try to give you sniper cover which would cause most of the vultures chasing you to back off if they did.

Also frustrating as a light with only short range weapons when I cannot cover the Dire Whales running to the Citadel.

Edited by MechWarrior5152251, 09 June 2015 - 04:30 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

alpine is the worst for slow mechs.

But its the scale, that makes you slow. You have biggest firepower ? ok, then you are the slowest.
Try breaking this rule, and you can uninstall the game for unbalance.

[PhoenixFire55]

Sarlic, on 09 June 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

Then what's the point of playing a teambased game? Because if you don't think about your fellow teammembers (apart from the group que) then i can just shoot off your leg for example, because you are in my way and it's a PUG game.

The rewards needs to be improved based on teamplay, because the solo que is just beyond annoying to play. Solo que always frustates me by the amount of derps on cruise control.

You are in a team when you know everyone in it and trust everyone in it, when you all have the same purpose. Solo queue and group queue have little to do with teams. Being in a group doesn't mean being in a team.

So, why should I bother helping my 'teammates' when my 'teammates' never bother to help me? When I see the same player performing well multiple times and doing what he can to help his team win I take a note to self and try to remember him, if I see him in a situation where he needs help I'll help him. But not some random people.

The rewards can hardly be more based on teamplay than they already are.

[Lugh]

Cion, on 05 November 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

When direwhales complain about that on River City in the likes of "stupid team always leaves assaults behind (dead)" I kindly tell him that no one forces him to ride a Direwhale every game.

Yes, a 100 tonner is SLOW. that's your choice to trade speed and maneuverability for extreme firepower. Either work to handle the weakness of the mech you take or choose another mech.

An assault complaining (in certain occasions) that he was abandoned is about the same as a Light complaining that he doesn't have enough firepower and exclaiming "Why did the team not fire at the target I was firing at??!"

Not the same at all, one has the maneuverability to engage and disengage at WILL. The other, has extreme fire power and the inability to disengage once engaged. If you are leaving assaults to their own devices you are a ******* idiot.

[Nightmare1]

I dislike slow Mechs. They pull down the rest of the team with them. In pugging queues, Assault pilots generally aren't even that good and are outperformed by the other three classes. My preference, is to ditch the Assaults and move to flank the enemy, keeping the better parts of my force intact. Have the Assaults (and other very slow Mechs) take up a defensive position and delay the enemy while the fast Mechs loop around and flank the enemy hard. Otherwise, most of the time you die when you go to babysit the Assaults because you get stuck in bad positions. A lot of the time, trying to meet with a slow Assault will put the entire team at risk. It's better to sacrifice the one Mech than it is the entire team.

Also, by moving quickly you can take out the enemy Assaults that are in the same situation as your own. Essentially, you trade Assault lances and clear the field. Alternatively, you draw the enemy back towards what appears to be your full force to protect their Assaults. In the meantime, yours finally waddle into the enemy flank, completing the reverse form of the maneuver that I previously described. This method saves your Assaults indirectly while also being the most productive of the ones I've mentioned.

Case in point is Tourmaline. It's important to push up the right side (staying out of the ditches) and flank through the back door (D7 if I recall correctly) to strike at the enemy in the crystal palace. For that to work, you need to be fast. Waiting on that slow Dire, or worse, going to meet him, puts your team at a disadvantage. You may even find most of your team in one of those killzone ditches. It's better to ditch that Dire and take the eleven Mechs that can fight together, and hit the enemy at the opportune moment. Use the Dire as bait even. If he makes it to the fight, then he'll be in a position to flank.

Anyways, that's my thought on it. I play to win, which means I'm willing to sacrifice allies if necessary to achieve that purpose (including myself of course). A lot of players aren't willing to make those calls. I am. It's yielded a lot of victories and some sour pugs (both group and solo).

Also, for those saying that "you need 12 to win," I would say simply that you are wrong. I've led undermanned groups to victory against larger forces because, even though we were down a Mech or two or five (in one instance), we had the discipline and coordination necessary to win. A small force of fast, hard-hitting, coordinated pilots can defeat a larger and slower force any time.