60 replies to this topic

[Strikeshadow]

Sadistic Savior, on 07 November 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

What was it about MW4 you enjoyed?

The rest of your post just comments on my views so I digress. I like MW4 because it had a fun solo queue mission series that allowed me to really understand the game before jumping into online play. I didn't know perfect builds after finishing the solo queue missions, but I had pretty good ones. It's not fun jumping into a game and getting pounded game after game for hours because you don't or can't have good builds plus don't know how different mechs play live. Sure you could take the trial mechs to the training grounds for hours and learn some, but no rewards and without using the mech lab.

Plus, the mech lab was so much easier to use on all the prior mech warrior games & the solo queue missions gave many more mechs and equipment in a vastly shorter time period than MWO.

There was also no wait for games. I could look at the active games modes and maps and pick one. I could even start my own. The only unrealistic, but helpful feature, was the ability to change mechs mid-match. I also knew which direction to retreat, now being surround happens whenever you don't keep up with your group - disengaging is basically impossible.

Further, MW4 had very few patches so once you learned exactly how much damage you needed to apply and good locations to exploit, you could use them again. It won a simulator game award and I found it much more realistic and simulator like than MWO where the damage numbers simply do not compute. I hit a light with 30 damage and it's 20 armor leg doesn't fall off, what!!!??? My leg is destroyed and I still limp around? I can see a mech 400m away, but I can't lock-on with LRMs?

This game much is so much less like a simulator than MW4 that it'd be funny if it didn't irritate me so much.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 07 November 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Strikeshadow, on 07 November 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

The rest of your post just comments on my views so I digress. I like MW4 because it had a fun solo queue mission series that allowed me to really understand the game before jumping into online play.

Thats not really going to be possible in a PvP MMO. Not without a lot of resources poured into AI that PGI does not have.

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I didn't know perfect builds after finishing the solo queue missions, but I had pretty good ones. It's not fun jumping into a game and getting pounded game after game for hours because you don't or can't have good builds plus don't know how different mechs play live.

It's a part of the learning process. PGI has no way of being able to anticipate your play style. So they provide a palette of options and you pick the ones most suited to you.

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Plus, the mech lab was so much easier to use on all the prior mech warrior games & the solo queue missions gave many more mechs and equipment in a vastly shorter time period than MWO.

They were easier to use in part because they had a lot less detail and a lot fewer options.

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There was also no wait for games.

...because it is a single player game. There is no need to wait when you do not have to wait for players to join, and then separate them out by weight class and ELO score. A lot of your complaints seem to stem from single player expectations in a MMOG.

As was said before, this game is attempting to simulate the table top game...it's not an arcade game. If an arcade game is what you are looking for you should pass on MWO as it is only going to frustrate you.

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I hit a light with 30 damage and it's 20 armor leg doesn't fall off, what!!!???

30 damage is enough to strip it's armor...the stuff inside the armor (internal structure) would have to be destroyed to destroy the leg.

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My leg is destroyed and I still limp around?

The leg is not actually destroyed...just the actuators that allow it to function.

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I can see a mech 400m away, but I can't lock-on with LRMs?

It is simulating a mech. If the mech were real, it would not be able to lock onto targets cloaked with ECM. You can dumb-fire missiles (just as you could if it were real), but they will not home on the target without a lock.

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This game much is so much less like a simulator than MW4

That is hilarious.

Why are you still playing MWO? The changes you want are not going to happen.

[Sadistic Savior]

xeromynd, on 07 November 2014 - 08:39 AM, said:

The only thing that I think makes ANY new player STICK with this game is the fact that they have some (even small) love for the IP or Lore. Everyone else I've showed this game to (who has never played or heard of an MW title) hated it, and put it down within one game of playing.

It's a niche game, I agree. I am ok with that. I don't want another generic mech game. We already have those.

Fortunately, there appear to be enough niche players to make it profitable enough for PGI to continue.

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I think PGI underestimates the sheer number of players that get turned away from this game because of the terrible new player experience.

Here's the problem...the changes needed to "fix" it would prevent advanced players from sticking around. There would no longer be any significant progression. There's no longer any incentive to stay. It would make the game more shallow.

I do not want another arcade mech game.

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Another problem is that, while any existing player would say "don't take the cadet bonus for granted!" it is not enough CBills at all. If you buy the wrong chassis as a new player (Locust, Atlas, or Awesome.... god help you) you've barely any CBills left over to try out DIFFERENT loadouts on the mech.

If you make a mistake, you save up some CBills and sell the old mech and start over. The system is there to make people choose carefully. Becuase it is trying to simulate Battletech economics where bad decisions cost money.

If you prefer the arcade approach, there is nothing wrong with that. But we already have those games. We don't have games like MWO.

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It's basically an expectation that we'd better 'get it right the first time' or suffer for our uneducated decision until we lose enough games that we have enough CBills to buy a second mech and try again.

You don't need to buy a second mech...sell your first one. If you are going to a lighter chasis, you probably can do it immediately without saving up at all.

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There's probably some incoherent points in the above rant, but the tl;dr version is: new player experience sucks, I'm surprised it's not focused on more, because players are responsible for funding this game.

It's been a few years and MWO is still here. Apparently they are making enough money and enough players are sticking around.

If the only way for MWO to survive is for it to become another watered down arcade game, I'll be ok seeing it die.

[Tarogato]

Completely agree with the OP. I feel like there's two types of people that come to MWO - ones that have an expectation, and ones that have sheer determination. The ones with the expectations are always disappointed by the new player experience. PGI knows the introductory period is awful, and are willing to improve it, they just don't have the resources to juggle that responsibility alongside developing CW and releasing two mech packs and the two new maps.

Strikeshadow, on 07 November 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

I chose a Hunchback based on several youtube videos, but it is awful because it has no jjs, no ecm, it has low survivability, and its right torso main weapon(s) hardpoint is a huge target. I didn't realize how bad it is until I'd bought the 2nd varient. Now I'm stuck with it because selling it gives 20% of what I paid and it would take another 300 games at least to level another mech without the cadet bonus. Worse yet, I must pay real money to buy mech bays 5 & 6 or else sell 2 varients of the Hunchback at a huge loss.

I made a similar mistake when I started. I played almost exclusively the trial Cicada because it was the only mech that I felt could actually move and also take a hit (it was between the Cicada and the Jenner, and the loadout on the trial Jenner is a joke) When I finally decided to buy my own mech, I did a LOT of research, and decided to buy a Trebuchet. And I hated it so much that I sold it before I probably finished 5 matches. And I just kept playing that Cicada until I had the money, and I decided to buy a Jenner because I knew it would be better with 6 MLas like the CDA-2A has. I wasn't wrong, and I've been a dedicated light pilot since. If I had made a wrong decision on the second purchase, I probably wouldn't be playing the game today.

Koniving, on 06 November 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

On a side note they do have a ranking system, but it accumulates to "averages" across the team with high and low-end players being pulled in to balance those averages, meaning there will always be players that know what they are doing alongside players that may feel as if they are simply there to be cannon fodder (and sometimes they are right).

Everything about me itches to see PGI implement actual elo matching for a week and see how it goes. Actually, I'm rather curious to see what the elo distribution for both solo and group queues right now - I bet it's a very narrow distribution since apparently it's only based on W/L?

I'm as tired as the next person with being matched with noobs. No offense to them, but they're a drag and I know how overwhelmingly frustrating it is to die in one shot to an experienced vet and have no clue how to learn from that. It's just brutal and unfair to both parties. We need some sort of segregation so everybody can have fun on their own level.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I do hope that after CW phase 2, PGI can divert resources to not only CW phase 3 but also the new learning experience. I think it's the right time for them to finally focus on that.

[Strikeshadow]

@Sadistic Savior,

MW4 actually won awards as a simulator game. MWO is nowhere near MW4 simulator level.

Comparison In MW4:
Mechs:
1. Jump Jets behaved as described in the novels unlike MWO where a light mech can actually turn in mid-air.
2. You could knock mechs to the ground
3. Legs could be blown off completely and obviously a lost leg means a dead mech
4. Unrealistic ghost heat didn't exist
5. One alpha-shot kills could (and occasionally did) happen to light mechs
6. Blowing arms off with one alpha strike did happen quite often
7, Heat caused screen and targeting degradation
8. Firing a weapon which caused too much heat would instantly kill you even with auto shut-down, although MWO might do this better with the heat damage
9. Torso twist and arm twist was possible so that you could effectively shoot behind you with one arm on some mechs
10. Visibilty was more realistic to real life conditions. On most days I can see structures 20 feet tall several miles away, not just 2k meters....
11. The maps were more realistic to normal terrain, unlike the cramped maps MWO uses
12. LRMs fired at a reasonable trajectory unlike the mortar type LRMs in MWO

In MWO:
1. The laser duration is more realistic to the novels
2. ECM is more detailed, although, this isn't more or less accurate than the MW4 ECM interaction, it's just different
3. Damage is less consistent and hopefully that reflects evironment changes like wind, humidity, elevation, gravity etc., but I don't know.
4. And I'm sorry I haven't seen it do anything else better.

The mech lab "details"
MWO adds modules solely as another way to earn money and discounting those modules, MW4 actually had just more options.
MW4 mech lab was easier to use mainly because you could save configurations, could change everything on one screen instead of all the pages for each torso, arm, head etc. In short, it took less mouse clicks to make a change than in MWO with a 14 year advantage in computer ergonomics.

Game modes: MW4 had king of the hill, capture the flag, deathmatch, no ammo, no heat, no friendly fire and respawn available in all but the deathmatch. I know they didn't all add to simulator reality, but they did give the game more ways to attract players. What's more, there was no wait for an online game because you could choose any current game to join if a slot was available. MW4 didn't account for ELO, but if you found a match too tough, you could quickly and easily switch to another.

And one last thing, MW4 even allowed some building (albeit with some bugs) and tree destruction, unlike MWO which allows none.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 07 November 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

1. don't know
2. You could do that here, but it was bugged and they removed it and putting it back in just hasn't been a priority yet. It's a technical issue.
3. I didn't like that from MW3. Legs are much easier to destroy than torsos then. I like the speed reduction which is more like the implementation of mechcommander.
4. No one really likes it, but it did curtail high alpha builds, which was the goal. It's possible it could be scrapped if a better alternative is available.
5. no change. But it would be more fun for lights to have a least a chance at surviving which they do here.
6. still possible but only on small mechs or those with little armor.
7. this could always be added at a later date
8. the heat system is different for sure but you can kill yourself if you do something stupid.
9. yep, you can here too. with both arms actually.
10. that's more of a technical issue really. it has to do with the scaling also. MWO is not scaled down so that mechs are what would normally be human size. They are much larger so the scale of the maps is bigger, which means more memory and processing power needed already.
11. Yes, MWO has some really small maps that were made early in development and only for 8v8 max. That's more of a planning and time restraint issue.
12. don't know

mechlab: yeah we all agree making mechs is cumbersome with UI2.0. even Russ doesn't like it. we're all waiting for them to allocate resources to change it. Modules are fine. IMO they are a good unique way to add something to the franchise. what do you mean by "earn money and discounting those modules?" Modules are never discounted and never cost real money (except the consumables which can be avoided entirely by unlocking the right pilot skills to upgrade the cbill one to perform the exact same. A grind for sure, but at least it's equal in the end.

gamemodes: yeah i think everyone wants more gamemodes. What's stopping them is each one they add splits the player queue more which results in worse matchups between players in teams.

Some of the things you mentioned are not in this game for technical or performance reasons.

[Sadistic Savior]

Strikeshadow, on 07 November 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

MW4 actually won awards as a simulator game.

Why are you here instead of playing MW4? What is MWO offering you if MW4 is so much better?

[Strikeshadow]

Sadistic Savior, on 07 November 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

Why are you here instead of playing MW4? What is MWO offering you if MW4 is so much better?

One and only one reason, not enough people still play MW4 online.

[Strikeshadow]

@ #27 TheCaptainJZ

3. MW4 had the speed reduction, forward only movement, and a major stagger that made aiming almost impossible when all the armor was stripped off, but the leg had not been quite destroyed. The speed reduction was to about 10kph for all mechs once their leg internals were damaged.

4. What's so bad about high alpha builds?

I will tell you guys, that I figured out a 4 ERLL, 74.5kph Hunchback build that is giving me regular 200 damage games plus the occasional 400 damage Maybe I can learn to like this mech.

[ImperialKnight]

The Jenner F is a beast. If you haven't spent all your cadet bonus, you could have it maxed out in 10 mill CBills. When I started out, it pulled consistent 100k CBill games for me. Of course that may have changed since the Rewards 2.0 kicked in. But the Jenner F is still one of the best mechs out there

[Sadistic Savior]

Strikeshadow, on 07 November 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

One and only one reason, not enough people still play MW4 online.

Ok, well I guess you're kinda screwed then. Sorry. I doubt we'll see another single player MW game anytime soon.

[Tim East]

Unfortunate, that. I really liked MW4 Mercs. Still play the single player on occasion. Maybe I should go back and see if I can get MW2 and Ghost Bear's Legacy working again...

[TheCaptainJZ]

Strikeshadow, on 07 November 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

4. What's so bad about high alpha builds?

If you want to tag someone in a post, just hit the quote button. Edit the text between the start and end tags if appropriate (like for longer posts and you just want to address one sentence). Edit: The reason being, it will send them a notification that way.

4. Well, several players see it as a cheap shot and not very fun. Were you around when we had 4-6 PPC stalkers and duel guass + PPC meta for like 6 months? There was much whining.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 07 November 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Mankor]

You have to master a chasis before you give up. The most OP thing in the game for noobs like you (me 12 months ago) is LRM target delay. Get a mech that can boat - TBTs or even the hunchy. Lock, shoot, hide. I turned the corner. I cannot tell you how this turned the game. I could earn cbills efficiently then I read, I looked at builds, mech specs, NGNG, here - THAT'S what I really love about this game it finding the build that worked for me. It was and still is amazing. Just rebuilt my hunchies after the quirks. Oh man.... good times. Don't give up yet. The joy is worth it.

If you are not a boat. NEVER be the first one to a fight EVER. WAIT until someone is engaged and then join the fight. If you are in a medium, don't punch a heavy or assault in the mouth... FLANK! Go around.

Mankor

[Tarl Cabot]

The one thing missing is the player interaction.

There was MW4/Mercs. Outside League plays ya had the Microsoft server site til it was dropped then picked up by Mektek and their servers and patches. No real chatrooms but the droproom but it was very forgiving since you could pop in/out of servers.

Then there were the real Mechwarrior games, EGA 3025 (PVE except on Solaris - blast!), MPBT Solaris (PVP with training room drop against same mech - originally supposed to have been SVGA 3025) and MPBT 3025 PvP. No mech customization but players had the ability to interact with other players outside the drop rooms.

They all had steep learning curves of some sort but having the ability to interact with others IN-GAME helped lots. Of course their were forums, IIRC, AIM, AOL, etc but the general public, to really get hooked needs that active/instance interaction. It is not like all of us are sitting in a huge warehouse with tables lined up, etc.

Yes, for instant directions/etc, VOIP is preferred but imho more would interact in a chatroom type setting, something that is seriously missing.

That is my penny's worth

[White Bear 84]

Well an interesting and candid overview by a new player which seems legit to me..

New player experience is terrible and this is highlighted by the acknowledgement by the devs and pretty much all players that it has a massive learning curve - yet nothing is in place (that is anyway effective) to help new players.

Yes there are trial mechs but these are sub-par the meta, the training grounds are static and do not teach ROE & the actual in game environment is pretty savage for new players so actually learning in an active environment is pretty tough.

I am all for new players having at least one new mech - one of the more battlehardy mechs and easiest to use to at least provide some footing..

As for information - I think there needs to be more documentation on how all of the mechanics work - in one place.. ..in other words a mechwarrior manual. Not all players will trawl the forums for info and even then its not like its always easy to find.

Explain ghost heat, lrm arcs, ecm, narc/tag, bonuses, engine ratings, torso twist, using arm actuators, pros/cons of 3PV, heat management, balanced builds (so many bad newb builds out there).. ..seriously, could write a thesis on all this information which is why it is essential to break it down for new players.....

[JC Daxion]

MY best peice of advice....... Pick some trial mechs... and hit the training gound... Plactice moving, shooting... and running..... so that on every map... learn every map.... then try again

[Garonis Buhallin]

Some Simple advice for a new player....
Always keep at least 3 other mechs visible in front of you.
Use the trials to pick a weight class that you are comfortable with, THEN do some simple research into the "best" mechs in the class.
Look up the No Guts No Galaxy (NGNG) or Comstar teamspeak servers, join the lobby, try and get a few games going with the folks in there.
Stick with it! We all sucked, and we all died horribly when we (veteran players) first started. Now we are the dudes raining on your parade. Soon, you will be bringing the horror to some other random new guy.

[Tim East]

Grymmbolt, on 07 November 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

we all died horribly when we (veteran players) first started.

Why are you using the past tense there? I've been around since the game opened and I still die horribly. On the other hand, I do drive Locusts mostly, and I do wreck people now. I still just die when something manages to tap me. All part of the experience.