155 replies to this topic

[QuantumButler]

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

By that assessment clan mechs should have been rare on the field for the last 5 months.

Since you seem to have missed the point, I'll wager that in a month - barring no changes to current quirks - we will see more 5SS fielded than other Thunderbolt variants. They are all available for CBills.

Why? Most clan mechs can be had for cbills now, I'm not talking about lore BS, just how you actually have to pay MC to buy the Boarer's Remorse

As for more 5SS's than others...

So? Some variants have always been far and away superior to others, such as the Atlas DDC, Jenners D and F, Raven 3L, etc, tons of variants have always been better than others, that's just how the game is.

Edited by QuantumButler, 07 November 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Sadato]

Try 3 LPL and 2 MP on the 9SE. Pack a 300XL, Endo, 3JJ's and 16DHS. Gotta strip that left arm of armour though (17DHS if you strip the legs a bit).

It's slightly higher dps and range for slightly higher heat compared with the 7MPL 5SS build. Yes, it's not as durable (XL) but having Jump Jets can be invaluable.

Edited by Sadato, 07 November 2014 - 08:23 AM.

[MerryIguana]

I never thought id see the day... A NERF TBOLT THREAD!

Will we nerf the 5S next? Seeing as im putting up very similiar games in it compared to the SS? 2 SRM6A 1 large 3 mediums.

Tbolts are good mechs now, get the hell over it.

[Mcgral18]

Evogenesis, on 07 November 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

The Thunderwub is OP, sad but true. I know there are lots of people who are enjoying their new power, but with great power comes great responsibility. Part of that responsibility is acknowledging that the 5SS can outperform nearly all other mechs at the short and medium range. Those extra bonus to MPL heat gen and range give it the range of a LPL with no risk at all to overheating.

Don't get me wrong, I love piloting the 5SS right now. I've owned them since Phoenix but never got around to mastering the Thuds. It is almost too fun to play them right now.

I've been using the WubShee for months; the mech that has the 5SS loadout, plus a LPL, and 5 additional heatsinks.

It's been called hacks twice over the course of 500 matches. It doesn't seem very OP.


Powerful, yes, but never OP. Both are ground bound mechs with short range weapons along with not ideal hitboxes.

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 November 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

I leveled up the free TDR9S to basic. It didn't seem like Tier 5, more like Tier 2. I had right shoulder mounted PPC. I was averaging a good 400 damage a match even without speed tweek. It is a really good hill humper with those high mounted shoulder weapons...

Not going to bother eliteing it until I can buy 2 more TDRs on sale because I have to level my sale priced Stormcrows, which I don't find all that impressive.

[KuroNyra]

Lexx, on 06 November 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Are you saying it's not balanced because it makes an IS mech as powerful as your OP clan mech?

That's what it looks like to me. Yes it gives IS medium pulse lasers almost as much range as clan med pulse lasers, but why is that a problem?

Why do some players seem think clan mechs should always have an advantage?

Because it's in the lore?
Because the purpose of the Clan mech is having weapons with better range, but longer duration allowing better damage spread?

I am usually against the idea of leaving the IS completly ******, but n this case. If a Clan lose his own advantage against the Inner Sphere who got his own.
What's the point? THAT will create balance issue.



In short
IS = Lower Range, better pinpoint damage.
Clan = Longer Range, DPM highter but harder to use.


In this case, you have a Weapon with the same range, with better damage, and I think a shorter duration.

[Ultimax]

QuantumButler, on 07 November 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

So? Some variants have always been far and away superior to others, such as the Atlas DDC, Jenners D and F, Raven 3L, etc, tons of variants have always been better than others, that's just how the game is.

Changing that is one of the major goals of the quirk system.

Mcgral18, on 07 November 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

I've been using the WubShee for months; the mech that has the 5SS loadout, plus a LPL, and 5 additional heatsinks.

It's been called hacks twice over the course of 500 matches. It doesn't seem very OP.


Powerful, yes, but never OP. Both are ground bound mechs with short range weapons along with not ideal hitboxes.

Your Wubshee runs an XL engine, with fairly huge STs.
The buffs it recieved on LPLs are much lower.
It recieved zero buffs to cooldown.
I'll go out on a limb and say you have to manage your heat much more carefully in the Wubshee.


My point is that I think the low heat and high RoF is a bit much which also came at the same time that MPLs had their heat reduced (which is a thing to celebrate). I think high RoF is fine, but should come at a heat cost or you get a big heat reduction but not also with a high CD reduction - especially for builds that can boat massed smaller weapons.


If we look at the Pretty Baby's LLAS quirks, this on the otherhand is totally fine IMO and the Pretty Baby needs those level of quirks because it can only even fit 2x LLAS to begin with, the alpha is also a lot lower.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 November 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Your Wubshee runs an XL engine, with fairly huge STs.
The buffs it recieved on LPLs are much lower.
It recieved zero buffs to cooldown.
I'll go out on a limb and say you have to manage your heat much more carefully in the Wubshee.


My point is that I think the low heat and high RoF is a bit much which also came at the same time that MPLs had their heat reduced (which is a thing to celebrate). I think high RoF is fine, but should come at a heat cost or you get a big heat reduction but not also with a high CD reduction - especially for builds that can boat massed smaller weapons.


If we look at the Pretty Baby's LLAS quirks, this on the otherhand is totally fine IMO and the Pretty Baby needs those level of quirks because it can only even fit 2x LLAS to begin with, the alpha is also a lot lower.

With the Thunder not yet basic'ed, the Banshee has an identical heat profile for the 7 MPLs (with the extra heatsinks, 20% cap and 15% cooling) aside from the additional ~10% heat of the LPL.

It's also more agile, which makes me laugh.


I think I prefer the WubShee, but at only 65 tons this does have an advantage ton for ton, along with durability. The MPLs firing at the old LPL distance is pretty big; bigger than the cooldown in my opinion.

[Mikros04]

Miyamoto Suzuki, on 07 November 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

In short this is excellent marketing by PGI.
Take a mech no one really uses, seriously boost it with quirks to get players interested in buying it and playing with it and then nerf it down to size once the market is saturated with them .

Exactly. You see that TBolt champ on sale this weekend? Coincidence?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

TTK is stupid low right now for everyone now -.-

[Kensaisama]

Guess I will be retooling my T-bolt for some hot MPL action this evening

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 07 November 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

With the Thunder not yet basic'ed, the Banshee has an identical heat profile for the 7 MPLs (with the extra heatsinks, 20% cap and 15% cooling) aside from the additional ~10% heat of the LPL.

Should a 95 ton Assault mech that needs to run an XL engine to make the build work end up with the same heat profile as a 65T heavy mech?

The only thing you get out of the deal is 11 more damage. Once that 5SS is fully elited, it should be a noticable difference - and it's only 3 DHS away with much lower heat gen.

Mcgral18, on 07 November 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

It's also more agile, which makes me laugh.

That's primarily due to skill vs. not skilled, but they are quite close at those engine sizes.






Although I'm kind of surprised that the Thunderbolts use the Medium movement archtype? Is that new?


For reference, most Heavies are "Large" such as Orion or Timberwolf. Many/Most Assaults are "Huge".



Anyway, this begs the question, if the Thunderbolts suffered from poor agility...why not buff their agility?

I'd much rather see more well rounded approaches to improving mechs as opposed to giving some of them low heat mega DPS or big alpha increases that require very low heat (relatively) to produce.

Mcgral18, on 07 November 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

I think I prefer the WubShee, but at only 65 tons this does have an advantage ton for ton, along with durability. The MPLs firing at the old LPL distance is pretty big; bigger than the cooldown in my opinion.

It's the whole combination really.

It's like firing 4x LPLs every 3s but for the cost of 20 heat instead of the near 38 heat it costs other IS mechs.

Instead of that load out weighing 28 tons, it only weighs 14 tons.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 November 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Kain Demos]

Stonefalcon, on 06 November 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Cause PGI are looking at reducing clans per CW battle to 10 vs 12 IS mechs. If there are IS mechs on equal footing with the clan mechs then you will have balance issues.

Nope. They announced the death of 10v12 some time ago because they didn't want to have to program the changes to the game to support 10v12.

[Sierra19]

oldradagast, on 07 November 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

The problem is that the Lore was written for a totally different game type.

Table-top Battletech is a game where everyone controls a bunch of units. Nobody cares if the IS guy has 50% more units, but some of them die in flaming piles of scrap early in the fight because Clans are far more powerful individually. The IS player just keeps on slogging away with the rest of his units.

But that's not the reality of MWO or any such online game. Here, we each control only ONE mech per fight. So, saying that Clan mechs should be far better and IS mechs should just be red-shirts that get mowed down and can only hope to win by numbers simply wouldn't work. The game would be no fun at all for the IS players in a situation like that. Or, to put it in old-school Nintendo terms, who wants to play a Koopa Troopa vs. playing as a boss or Mario?

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. One of the fellas in my unit stated that things have been pretty rough (read pretty terrible) for IS players with the introduction of the clan mechs. And herein lies the problem: in lore the clans would bid to see who would go in with the fewest mechs to take on an opponent, and clanners would fight in single combat to defeat a mech, or two, or three. But in MWO, players are playing to win, by using tactics any clanner would find reprehensible, ie coordinated attacks of several mechs against a single target, using ecm so enemy mechs can't get a target lock, ect...

So how do make IS mechs (inferior), a viable choice, where they can actually stand a chance vs a clan mech (superior), given the way the player population uses them? Either we can remove the quirks and have a star of clan mechs (5), face a company of IS mechs (12). Because in lore that's how it worked. And then once a clan mech locked onto a target, they'd be unable to target ANY OTHER MECH, until their target was destroyed, and also, once a clan mech locked onto a target, no other clan mech could lock onto it, or even shoot it. Because that's pretty much how it worked in the lore. Be careful when you start to sling Battletech lore about the forums for why clan mechs should be better, because I've yet to see someone actually USE a clan mech like a clanner.

[Kain Demos]

Sierra19, on 07 November 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. One of the fellas in my unit stated that things have been pretty rough (read pretty terrible) for IS players with the introduction of the clan mechs. And herein lies the problem: in lore the clans would bid to see who would go in with the fewest mechs to take on an opponent, and clanners would fight in single combat to defeat a mech, or two, or three. But in MWO, players are playing to win, by using tactics any clanner would find reprehensible, ie coordinated attacks of several mechs against a single target, using ecm so enemy mechs can't get a target lock, ect...

So how do make IS mechs (inferior), a viable choice, where they can actually stand a chance vs a clan mech (superior), given the way the player population uses them? Either we can remove the quirks and have a star of clan mechs (5), face a company of IS mechs (12). Because in lore that's how it worked. And then once a clan mech locked onto a target, they'd be unable to target ANY OTHER MECH, until their target was destroyed, and also, once a clan mech locked onto a target, no other clan mech could lock onto it, or even shoot it. Because that's pretty much how it worked in the lore. Be careful when you start to sling Battletech lore about the forums for why clan mechs should be better, because I've yet to see someone actually USE a clan mech like a clanner.

The star vs 2 lance or company idea would be fun but keep in mind that once an opponent broke zellbrigen (and even this varies by clam) then so would they.

[Gyrok]

Lexx, on 06 November 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Are you saying it's not balanced because it makes an IS mech as powerful as your OP clan mech?

That's what it looks like to me. Yes it gives IS medium pulse lasers almost as much range as clan med pulse lasers, but why is that a problem?

Why do some players seem think clan mechs should always have an advantage?

It is a problem because they run 33% cooler for the same range, same weight, meanwhile, all the "OP" clan weapons are nearly 30-40% hotter across the board, for 15-20% more damage and virtually no range advantage.

What it means is that IS mechs got buffed so hard clans are now underpowered. Expect clan buffs or incoming nerfs.

Just FYI, the 5SS puts out 20% more sustained dps for 39% less heat than laser vomit TW with a std engine. If you out dps the "OP" dps builds you become what?

Edited by Gyrok, 07 November 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[G SE7EN7]

Read this thread... tried it out... first round wow, lol

[mindwarp]

DPS isn't the only measure of a battlemech. Speed, maneuverability, armour, hitboxes, hardpoints and weapon placement are all important factors. Amazing how the complainers go from "DPS is useless because you have to face the enemy. If it's not PPFLD, it's crap" to "This mech has a high DPS, nerf it now".

[QuantumButler]

Maybe you guys should just use tactics and superior positioning to defeat the mighty 65 ton Inner Sphere robot, after all that's what you guys told us to do to defeat obviously not at all OP dire whales and Tiberwoofs.

[Johnny Z]

Sierra19, on 06 November 2014 - 08:46 PM, said:

So, once again, min/maxers will potentially screw things up (LRM 60 boats, 6 ER large laser stalkers, ect...) Personally, I don't min/max, my 5SS has one LPL, 4 MPL's, and an SRM6. Yes, the 7 MPL build can be scary, but it's a one trick pony. Keep it at range, and problem solved. I've yet to see one carve through an entire team, or even half of one, yet some of the broken clan builds can do that, in the hands of a good pilot, and it seems a lot of min/max players play clan tech for that very reason.

Yep its not uncommon to see a Dire Wolf get 7 kills in a match(pre quirks), not at all. When I see 10 matches of a STK or TDR doing that in a relatively short amount of time, then I will take the whines more seriously. Not to mention this common 7 kills a match for a Dire Wolf was going on for months.......................... Added extra periods for emphasis

This is likely whining from PTW man babies who dont want the IS get none XL side torso wreck etc.

No offense to anyone, I try to include "PTW man babies" in as many replies as possible because I think its hilarious.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 November 2014 - 06:21 AM.