155 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Halcyon201, on 06 November 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

God forbid the Thunderbolt performs in the same vicinity of clan mechs with similar tonnage.

OK so this is the kind of mindset I'm trying to set straight.

It's not "The Thunderbolt" it's "One Specific" Thunderbolt.


The reason these huge buffs are so powerful on this one variant is because other variants are more limited by the Tonnage of the weapons they got buffs too.

How many 7 ton Large Pulse Lasers can you realistically get onto the 9SE?

How about 3 of them?

That's a 33 point alpha vs. the 5SS' 42 point alpha, except it costs an extra 7 TONS to generate that 33 point alpha.

7 extra tons, 9 less damage.


Why is the 5SS several orders magnitude better with Medium Pulse Lasers than my Boar's Head which is bigger, easier to shoot at, easier to disarm and if I manage to stuff a 350STD engine in there still travels around 64 KPH?



A lot of IS mechs REALLY needed buffs to bring them into a better place, and that's happening - but the last thing we need the quirk system to do is simply create new "winner" IS mechs and new "loser" IS mechs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 November 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Killaxis]

I don't usually post anything, I just sit on the side and read. This particular issue I have been waiting for it to hit the fan so to speak. I run the STD 300 20 Heat-sink variant and I must say the 5ss is now a viable solution to the Dire Wolves and Storm Crows out there. I can get 400-900 Damage depending on my team and usually 3-4 kills per match. Oh and I love the 5 MPL after I get my arms ripped off.. If you pilot it right you can torso twist and spread the remaining damage around enough to possibly get that last kill in...LOL

[-Halcyon-]

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

OK so this is the kind of mindset I'm trying to set straight.

It's not "The Thunderbolt" it's "One Specific" Thunderbolt.


The reason these huge buffs are so powerful on this one variant is because other variants are more limited by the Tonnage of the weapons they got buffs too.

How many 7 ton Large Pulse Lasers can you realistically get onto the 9SE?

How about 3 of them?

That's a 33 point alpha vs. the 5SS' 42 point alpha, except it costs an extra 7 TONS to generate that 33 point alpha.

7 extra tons, 9 less damage.


Why is the 5SS several orders magnitude better with Medium Pulse Lasers than my Boar's Head which is bigger, easier to shoot at, easier to disarm and if I manage to stuff a 350STD engine in there still travels around 64 KPH?



A lot of IS mechs REALLY needed buffs to bring them into a better place, and that's happening - but the last thing we need the quirk system to do is simply create new "winner" IS mechs and new "loser" IS mechs.

The downsides were already listed for this particular build.
Ok it takes 7 more tons, but you can fire further with a LPL then a MPL. And are you seriously going to compare your Atlas with all it's armor to a 65 ton underarmored Thunderbolt?

Um, ok. Next ridiculous argument?

[Hillslam]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Cause I want my enemy to be a tough challenge. Makes winning so much more sweet.

I used to respect this "you're the only one who thinks this way except the clanners" position.


... until I learned you have an alt account where you put on the dress, lipstick and hose and run around in drag piloting those filthy clan machines.

Double lives my friend.

[Ultimax]

Halcyon201, on 07 November 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

OK it takes 7 more tons, but you can fire further with a LPL then a MPL.

That's not easy to peg.

Those 7 tons can be invested directly into Engine or DHS on the 5SS, and yes the LPLs have more range but IIRC it's only about 100m.

If you plop 3x LPLs into the 9SE and then add a 300STD, the best you can fit are about 5 extra DHS vs. the 10 extra slotted by the 5SS.

Halcyon201, on 07 November 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

And are you seriously going to compare your Atlas with all it's armor to a 65 ton underarmored Thunderbolt?

Yes, I did.


The Boar's Head will overheat long before the 5SS, it can't really extricate itself from bad situations. It can't disengage to cooldown.


These are all things a heavy mech moving at 80kph can do.


Let's give it a few weeks, I'm willing to bet that if nothing changes will see a fair number of 5SS in action, but no change in the Boar's Head population.

[Revis Volek]

Stonefalcon, on 06 November 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Cause PGI are looking at reducing clans per CW battle to 10 vs 12 IS mechs. If there are IS mechs on equal footing with the clan mechs then you will have balance issues.

They bailed on that a long time ago dude...

[RetroActive]

The SE can actually equip 4 LPL. It requires an XL and stagger fire, but it can be done and looks fun!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aea4009d011d331

I must try this tonight.

[Barantor]

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Let's give it a few weeks, I'm willing to bet that if nothing changes will see a fair number of 5SS in action, but no change in the Boar's Head population.

Being that it is one of the more expensive hero mechs and is still considered inferior because of lack of ECM, I think it might see a little more use but it's quirks didn't make it the standout of the Atlases, whereas the quirks for the 5SS have made it the standout of the thunderbolts and perhaps the quirk system as a whole.

One thing to also consider is I can put those 3 LPL in the 9SE in one torso so they all hit without much dispersion into terrain, whereas the 5SS needs to be in the furball to really do it's best potential damage. The 9SE in that regard isn't comparable to the 5SS's role, since the 9SE is used more as a flanker and precision strike mobility platform, and the 5SS is more of a brawler/striker.

The 5S retains it's role as a catapult like platform for missiles and lasers, whereas the 9S becomes what the 5SS was stock, a platform for ERPPCs and ridge humping madness.

[Almond Brown]

KamikazeRat, on 06 November 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

next week's feature presentation : the "R" button

haha..who am i kidding, they'll never find that thing.

Even Sesame Street tried it. Did not take apparently.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

You know...

I suppose I could see this so long as mechs on the other side of the fence got similar treatment. If the Nova Prime model/omnipods will be treated the same or as closely with quirks such as this TDR-5SS to make the mech as equally viable in the name of "balance" for subpar mechs and their builds, then I wouldn't have a problem. What's good for the goose...

[Bhael Fire]

Stonefalcon, on 06 November 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Cause PGI are looking at reducing clans per CW battle to 10 vs 12 IS mechs. If there are IS mechs on equal footing with the clan mechs then you will have balance issues.

Their last statement on this was that they are NOT going to balance this way. That is, it will be 12 v 12 in CW.

Unless they flip-flopped on their decision in the last couple months.

[Hillslam]

00ohDstruct, on 07 November 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

You know...



I suppose I could see this so long as mechs on the other side of the fence got similar treatment. If the Nova Prime model/omnipods will be treated the same or as closely with quirks such as this TDR-5SS to make the mech as equally viable in the name of "balance" for subpar mechs and their builds, then I wouldn't have a problem. What's good for the goose...

And they are. Clan quirk pass coming.

And then work to get the 2 to 1 win rate balanced. (Russ's latest test numbers 64% vs 36%) But that has to wait legitimately until all clan mechs are available for cbills.

Edited by Hillslam, 07 November 2014 - 07:24 AM.

[Barantor]

00ohDstruct, on 07 November 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

You know...

I suppose I could see this so long as mechs on the other side of the fence got similar treatment. If the Nova Prime model/omnipods will be treated the same or as closely with quirks such as this TDR-5SS to make the mech as equally viable in the name of "balance" for subpar mechs and their builds, then I wouldn't have a problem. What's good for the goose...

And then you will have a clan medium that can do what the TDR can do, but probably better, yet folks will say that is fine because they are clan,

I think once the shock of the 5SS wears off folks will figure out that if you hit the right torso and take it out it loses more than 50% of it's firepower......

[Almond Brown]

RetroActive, on 07 November 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

The SE can actually equip 4 LPL. It requires an XL and stagger fire, but it can be done and looks fun!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aea4009d011d331

I must try this tonight.

Be a tad hot but with Quirks and modules those LPL's will reach out to almost 500m so it will pack a nice sting. I like to run with 3 LPL, 3 JJ and BAP.

[Ultimax]

RetroActive, on 07 November 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

The SE can actually equip 4 LPL. It requires an XL and stagger fire, but it can be done and looks fun!

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...aea4009d011d331

I must try this tonight.

There is a huge, huge difference between a:


42 point alpha with 300STD Engine with 20 DHS.

vs.

44 point alpha with 280XL Engine with only 13 DHS.




The second one made major sacrifices to get there, no one reasonable could possibly complain about that build.


The first one, with a STD engine, is superior to the second by a large margin. Those two builds aren't even remotely close.


IMO the 5SS is superior.

Barantor, on 07 November 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

Being that it is one of the more expensive hero mechs and is still considered inferior because of lack of ECM, I think it might see a little more use but it's quirks didn't make it the standout of the Atlases,

It's inferior because:

• All energy weapons in the arms - can't use arms as shields
  
• Energy weapon heavy without the amazing energy weapon buffs we are seeing other IS mechs get
  
• Remove RT and you reduce a 100T mech to 3 MPLs.
  
• Brawling/Skirmishing generally requires speed to disengage or enough cooling to sustain the build. Things other IS mechs received, but the BH did not receive enough of.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 November 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[Barantor]

Almond Brown, on 07 November 2014 - 07:35 AM, said:

Be a tad hot but with Quirks and modules those LPL's will reach out to almost 500m so it will pack a nice sting. I like to run with 3 LPL, 3 JJ and BAP.

That is my setup too Almond, we keep matching each other lol.

Really good for a bit of jump sniping till you can get behind things and tear up those rear torsos. Legs the lights and mediums if you catch them too.

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

It's inferior because:

• All energy weapons in the arms - can't use arms as shields
  
• Energy weapon heavy without the amazing energy weapon buffs we are seeing other IS mechs get
  
• Remove RT and you reduce a 100T mech to 3 MPLs.

Which isn't a problem with the 5SS, more a problem with the Boar's Head and further reinforces my point that the BH's problems are not in relation to the quirks the 5SS got "over" it.

[Ultimax]

Barantor, on 07 November 2014 - 07:38 AM, said:

Which isn't a problem with the 5SS, more a problem with the Boar's Head and further reinforces my point that the BH's problems are not in relation to the quirks the 5SS got "over" it.

Compare the 5SS to what other Heavies got, compare it to what other Thunderbolts got.

Big range buff + big heat reduction buff + big cooldown buff with the ability to boat, no GH, and ability to run a 300 STD engine in a 65T mech while still having 20 DHS.


Hell, compare that to an AC 40 Jager. With huge STs, XL engine, ammo limitation - less range, more heat per alpha. Slow projetile vs. Hitscan.


There are winners and losers in this system, and it's a bit of a lotto based on different varables.

[QuantumButler]

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

That's not easy to peg.

Those 7 tons can be invested directly into Engine or DHS on the 5SS, and yes the LPLs have more range but IIRC it's only about 100m.

If you plop 3x LPLs into the 9SE and then add a 300STD, the best you can fit are about 5 extra DHS vs. the 10 extra slotted by the 5SS.






Yes, I did.


The Boar's Head will overheat long before the 5SS, it can't really extricate itself from bad situations. It can't disengage to cooldown.


These are all things a heavy mech moving at 80kph can do.


Let's give it a few weeks, I'm willing to bet that if nothing changes will see a fair number of 5SS in action, but no change in the Boar's Head population.

Well yeah, the Boar's Head is a cash only mech, of course it's going to be rarer than a 65 tonner anyone with enough cbills can buy, and it should be.

It's also always been one of the worst Atlases, outclassed only by the completely irredeemable K, I'm sorry you spent 40 dollars on a bad robot but that's really beside the point.

[Ultimax]

QuantumButler, on 07 November 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Well yeah, the Boar's Head is a cash only mech, of course it's going to be rarer than a 65 tonner anyone with enough cbills can buy, and it should be.

By that assessment clan mechs should have been rare on the field for the last 5 months.

Since you seem to have missed the point, I'll wager that in a month - barring no changes to current quirks - we will see more 5SS fielded than other Thunderbolt variants. They are all available for CBills.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 November 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Barantor]

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

By that assessment clan mechs should have been rare on the field for the last 5 months.

Since you seem to have missed the point, I'll wager that in a month - barring no changes to current quirks - we will see more 5SS fielded than other Thunderbolt variants. They are all available for CBills.

That is an easy thing to wager on, it is better than the other variants and takes less skill to do well in. It is the same for any other mech that does well. The D-DC atlas is usually more fielded... the timberwolf with the JJs was more fielded...

I'm not saying the TDR doesn't need some fine tuning, but it doesn't need the nerf bat either. I think if anything it is finally time to have Medium Pulse get the same ghost heat that Medium Lasers get.

That is, unless they give the Nova the same or similar bonuses the TDR gets, then it isn't just one standout.

The Cicada 2B got some of these upgrades too and can boat 5.

This is a similar situation that occurred back when the 4J started really doing well, but lets not pounce on it with the nerf bat as hard?

I'd say give it a month and we will see what happens.