263 replies to this topic

[Kain Demos]

WarHippy, on 07 November 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well what you suggest would be fun, but Clan vs IS needs to happen as well. That is the major event that takes place 3050-3052.

Of course and that is the focus of CW which is why I mentioned my idea being dependent on the fact that we have it and it is functioning.

[Mister Blastman]

Piney, on 07 November 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

There certainly are some Clan mechs that need some love.

If / when that happens, the rage and QQ on this forum will be epic.

Having alternate side torsos on the Summoner would be amazing. Can you imagine high-mounted energy hardpoints on them? How about some endo, too? Double gauss Summies. Mmmmm.

[Mikros04]

If you clanners want to exclude your holy trinity from testing to prove how underpowered your mechs are, that's fine, lets exclude the good IS mechs too. Lets fight Novas, Kit Foxes, Summoners and WarHawks vs. Locusts, Wolverines, Orions and Awesomes... k? See what I did there? Fight the good vs. the good and Clan mechs are superior. Fight **** vs. **** and I bet you'd still find that Clan mechs are superior.

Edited by Mikros04, 07 November 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Rufus Ingram]

CliffhangerJaeger, on 07 November 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

I have only read 3 pages of this thread, but one thing that has been overlooked so far:

The clan players ELO will have been inflated from playing clan mechs for the last 4 months of slightly better than average mechs.
As a result, the 'real' ELO/skill level may be equal between clan and IS.

Not sure how to remove this systemic factor from the results, any co-dependent variable statisticians out there?

Or, to put it another way, how can you use ELO to justify imbalance when the imbalance affects ELO?

I agree that a lot of variables are playing into a random public test that affect balance that can't be accounted for. A more thorough test concerning balance would have to match a set of 12 IS and Clan players with fully mastered and moduled mechs. If those factors, along with rough weight equivalents and acceptable ELO difference were constant, we'd have a more solid basis for evaluating overall balance even with chassis variation. PGI knows this, they created the game and gave us those elements has part of the game for variety, something to work for, etc, and they know they have an impact on match outcomes, so they know the variables they're dealing with. But imagine what a chore it would be to rely on people's infintely varied drop choices to create that kind of match in the solo drop que. Matchmaker could be holding people in the que for a long time to get enough people together matching all of those criteria in the narrow parameters the test would require. As just one factor, how many people don't carry 2 consumables every drop?

This test is a good guidepost, like the previous ones, but we can't expect it to do more than it can.

[Vlad Striker]

Clan mechs have only one advantage - speed. And lot of disadvantages. But speed rules above all others. That's explains 64%.
But clan mechs MUST prevail IS mechs "by design".

[SaltBeef]

HOOEY! Every IS light is faster, Jester 355XL, 90kph Awsome, 60KPH boarshead etc. etc. etc. Speed! LOL.

[RustyBolts]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

Clans won 64%



Yes

How many of those were Nova, adders or sumners?

[Mikros04]

RustyBolts, on 07 November 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

How many of those were Nova, adders or sumners?

Not as many as there were tier 4 and 5 IS mechs I'm sure.

[N0MAD]

Russ Bullock, on 06 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

I ran a quick Clan vs IS test....

What was the average clan/IS average weight ratio, any idea?

[Aresye]

Triban, on 07 November 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Food For Thought: Clan ELO is higher not due to skill, but due to the inherent advantages of their chassis. Therefore, one can assume equal skill pilots on unequal footing. People who pilot clan mechs will, over time, experience an ELO inflation greater than their skill level simply due to the advantages their Chassis brings.


Higher ELO=Higher Win Rate
Higher ELO =\= higher skillset (in regards to piloting better mechs)

The only real thing that inflates Elo is coordinated group play in the group queue, and the majority of group players with inflated Elos aren't usually in the solo queue when these tests get conducted.

If you were making the argument that group players that played mostly Clan mechs had a higher inflation, I could get onboard with that, but when it comes to the solo queue it's an entirely different story.

For a solo player, their choice of taking a Clan mech might turn the tide of a battle every now and then, but it wouldn't happen with any consistent regularity to drastically inflate their Elo.

For example, it doesn't matter if I take a Timberwolf and can regularly score 1000+ damage games with 5+ kills in group queue. I'd still be on a losing team 0-12 in the solo queue regardless if I was in a Timberwolf or a Vindicator.

The leaderboard challenges are actually the best proof of this, because in order to place well on the leaderboard, you need those matches where you (and your mech) alone affect the outcome of the match, and those matches are incredibly rare, which is why leaderboards are really just a representation of dedication. The top players being those that simply play the longest to get 10 of these matches, often acquiring a huge streak of losses and a giant hit to the KDR in the process.

In other words, a group player with an inflated Elo will slowly lose Elo points and fall into a more accurate Elo with extended solo play, simply because their individual performance and choice of mech no longer has as much impact on the outcome of a match. It's very unlikely that a player's choice of mech has any impact on their own Elo rating in solo play.

[The Boz]

I'd say winning 64% of the time is a pretty drastic regularity...

[Andi Nagasia]

personally i feel as im sure others do, there needs to be tests,
but they need to be done in 1-2 weeks people are still trying out new builds,
it will be 1-2 weeks till people have found their Prefect IS Quirk load out,

that said not only do their need to be tests,
but i think people the test needs to go on for at least 48 hours,
to be sure the numbers and load-outs are stable,


also when dealing with Clan Quirks,

Andi Nagasia, on 06 November 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

i think its most likely that clan quirks will be balanced by Omni-Pods,
each location having a different quirk or buff, example,

=Head=
Structure, or Armor,
Heat, or Lock time
Weapons(only if there are Weapon hard-points)

=Center-Torso=
Structure, or Armor,
Heat, Torso-Twist-Speed, Torso-Twist-Angle, or Lock time
Weapons(only if there are Weapon hard-points)

=Side-Torsos=
Structure, or Armor,
Heat, Torso-Twist-Speed, or Torso-Twist-Angle,
Weapons(only if there are Weapon hard-points)

=Arms=
Structure, or Armor,
Heat, Arm-Speed, or Arm-Angle,
Weapons bonuses,

Legs=
Structure, or Armor,
Heat, Acceleration, or Deceleration,

exapmles-
NVA-P Left-Leg= +5% Heat Efficiency,
NVA-B Left-Leg= +5% Acceleration, +5% Deceleration,
NVA-S Left-Leg= +5% JJ height(since most S variants have JJ)

so a player can pick and choose specific Omni-pods that will fit their play style,
of course bonuses would be much less than IS counterparts to keep balance Force Balance,
as a victor may get 50% heat efficiency, but a nova would have to equip all 7 prime parts to get their 35%,
Right now their is not much reason to use a certain Omni-pod over anther besides Weapon hard-points,

Thoughts,
Thanks,

from General Discussion Topic,
(Clan Quirks)
ya sorry about quoting my self,

[Astrocanis]

Ultimatum X, on 06 November 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

And how many of those teams were carried to victory on by Kit Foxes, Adders, Ice Ferrets, Novas, Summoners and Warhawks?


Not all clan mechs are created equal.




Sorry I disagree with this one.

I run STD engines in my Assaults & I would run them on my Clan Assaults if I could customize more.

Forcing penalties onto engines you can't remove in mechs that have humongous side torsos they can't even use their arms to defend is pretty crummy.


Mostly this would hurt a few specific mechs more than others. I got legged once in my Dire Wolf and I could barely tell the difference.

Conversely, how many IS victories were carried by Locusts, Kintaros, Wolverines, Dragons, etc.

Not all IS mechs are created equal either. On the average, Clan mechs are superior.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Mister Blastman, on 07 November 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Having alternate side torsos on the Summoner would be amazing. Can you imagine high-mounted energy hardpoints on them? How about some endo, too? Double gauss Summies. Mmmmm.

I miss my MW2 Mercs Summie.

[Ultimax]

Astrocanis, on 07 November 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Conversely, how many IS victories were carried by Locusts, Kintaros, Wolverines, Dragons, etc.

Not all IS mechs are created equal either. On the average, Clan mechs are superior.

Honestly, this would be interesting to know.


The only thing that has changed since the last test are all of the quirks that have been added.

They haven't been added to 3Ds, Victors, Highlanders, etc.

[Oto Kanon]

It would be nice to see separate data for Solo and Group queues. or was this done only for solo because groups can mix in their mechs?

[Kanatta Jing]

Ultimatum X, on 07 November 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Honestly, this would be interesting to know.


The only thing that has changed since the last test are all of the quirks that have been added.

They haven't been added to 3Ds, Victors, Highlanders, etc.

Do not forget the removal of the Victors negative quirks.

Oto Kanon, on 07 November 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

It would be nice to see separate data for Solo and Group queues. or was this done only for solo because groups can mix in their mechs?

The test was reportedly solo queue alone.

Edited by Kanatta Jing, 07 November 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[SaltBeef]

........Or we could just fill 2 of the slots in the Clan queue with a Clan food processing unit ( Harmless ) and a Data Hub ( Harmless ) or fill those 2 slots with unpiloted mechs in hangers or in a state of repair that offers Salvage if destroyed..... to buff the Clans back up for 10 v 12.
Make it so accounts can have 2 Mech pilots 1 IS ( Pick Faction ) 1 Clan ( pick Faction ). so we can alternate and play both ends during CW but pilot factions cannot be near each other preventing manipulations.

Example you can not be Clan Smoke Jaguar and also play a IS pilot that is Draconis Combine.

The 2 pre-filled queues would speed the latency up I am sure.


I like the Mechcommader Gold Auto Cannon Sound starts at 1:36 to 1:40.



Echo needs to happen especially in Canyon



like the destructor tank in Enemy Nations Game 1997 I still play this game it is fun. Sim City Combat.

Edited by SaltBeef, 07 November 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[SweetJackal]

SaltBeef, on 07 November 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

........Or we could just fill 2 of the slots in the Clan queue with a Clan food processing unit ( Harmless ) and a Data Hub ( Harmless ) or fill those 2 slots with unpiloted mechs in hangers or in a state of repair that offers Salvage if destroyed..... to buff the Clans back up for 10 v 12.
Make it so accounts can have 2 Mech pilots 1 IS ( Pick Faction ) 1 Clan ( pick Faction ). so we can alternate and play both ends during CW but pilot factions cannot be near each other preventing manipulations..

Example you can not be Clan Smoke Jaguar and also play a IS pilot that is Draconis Combine.

The 2 pre-filled queues would speed the latency up I a sure.

Something I have said countless times and something I will without a doubt continue to have to explain. In a Free To Play business model online multiplayer game in which each individual only controls one unit you cannot design the game around the idea that certain factions will place more impact on the individual player. The average player will not want to play "fodder" and so you will see a massive population swing to the side that has the more powerful units.

This perceived power and importance is exactly why there has always been a massive flood of players in DPS classes in the classic MMO Trinity design and why there is often team infighting over the roles of "Carries" and "Assassins" in DOTA styled games. Yet even in those cases the game is designed where the roles perceived to have less impact actually have just as much impact as DPS, Carries or Assassins, they are just more subtle about it.

By making it so that more players exist on one side and each player only controls one unit you are required to give the side with fewer players more impact per player. Instead of a perceived power or impact difference there is a real difference which is problematic. Accepting this as the status quo and required for MWO would turn the IS side and factions obsolete.

Now wait, aren't there games that do Asynchronous Balance well while having players only control one unit with uneven sides? Yes, games like Evolve do this well and even games like Natural Selection 2 do place significantly more importance on one player or give a dramatic amount of impact to a single player. The differences here are progression and business model. The vast majority of these games are on a Title Cost business model, you pay once to play the game so there isn't significant progression or power locked behind time sinks and paywalls. The majority of these games also rotate the players through the roles or sides that have more impact so that everyone gets a turn or they have the high impact role (like Commander) being chosen/vetoed by their own teammates.

MWO doesn't fit into either of those exceptions and can't have the BV balancing mechanic as the TT did as the pivotal concept behind BV working is that you can choose to have more lower BV units or less high BV units, they were under your control so players had equal impact on the game.

[SaltBeef]

Great In game Music always helps combat.