128 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

IraqiWalker, on 10 November 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

As it stands right now, a T-Wolf can bring twice as many guns with better hitboxes and identical mobility to a summoner.

As far as the game engine and design go, that's very true. From running both, I can tell you that the have very different feels to them, the Timber Wolf feels like it has momentum in everything it does, while I feel like the Summoner is floating, or dancing through the battle zone. I think that PGI did a good job in that regard.

[Metus regem]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 November 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

I think it was a way for FASA to make players happy who wanted a Madcat for several different roles and tonnages. Still feels cheap to me.

Anyway, doesn't matter what I think. If there is a lore explanation, that one is as good as any. Marketing is key .

I think some Clan merchants started to hate on LBX cluster rounds... the armour on the Mad Cat III ignores 1 point per 5 point groups done to it, since LBX does 1 point groups..... well you get the point, erm paint scratch I guess?

[Rhent]

IraqiWalker, on 10 November 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but that post reeks of being bad.

First: Don't call people bad, when you don't have a proper argument

Second: If you think this "nerf" was that severe, then you clearly don't know how to pilot a madcat.

Third: Not a single one of those loadouts works outside of the underhive who still don't know how to mount AMS. Which speaks more about your opponents, than it does about your skill.

Fourth: If you honestly think the current madcat is half as bad as a summoner, then either you have not piloted either of them, or clearly don't know what you're talking about.

As it stands right now, a T-Wolf can bring twice as many guns with better hitboxes and identical mobility to a summoner.

Thanks for proving my point about BAD's and displaying it. You don't know math and critical space slots.

First: A madcat to sport 4 MIssile Hard Points has a 4 ton JJ tax placed on the chassis. With full armor, the Madcat has 23 tons of free space or has 31.28% of its tonnage devoted to weapons. Whereas a Summoner to run 4 missile hard points has a 5 ton tax placed on the chassis. With full armor, the Summoner has 20 tons of free space or has 29.95% of tonnage devoted to weapons. The nerf that was applied to the Madcat was specifically to Missile Builds, which gave the Madcat its long or short range heat to damage punch. If the Madcat is piloting a LRM 15 build, he will have to place his ammo in the arms.

Second: The nerf placed the Madcat into the Summoner range for available weapon space when the pilot chose to boat missiles. The Madcat pilot is now forced to run laser or clan ac builds, which after the quirkening are less than stellar.

Third: If you need AMS to deal with LRM's you are a BAD. I'm sorry, there is not other thing to write to you now.

[Joseph Mallan]

What does Dr. Cox say????

[Demonic]

Madcat in MWO is a heavy with the speed and agility of a medium and the firepower and durability of an assault.

[Metus regem]

Demonic, on 10 November 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Madcat in MWO is a heavy with the speed and agility of a medium and the firepower and durability of an assault.

The Timber Wolf was like that in TT too....

[Rhent]

Demonic, on 10 November 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Madcat in MWO is a heavy with the speed and agility of a medium and the firepower and durability of an assault.

Durability of an Assault = No. You can zombie with an IS Assault, you can't with a clan equivalent. You can stack your weaponry on one side and use the other for a shield, its not impossible to do it with the Clan but significantly harder due to symmetrical hard point allocations and lack of critical slots.

A Madcat is the heaviest of the Heavy mechs, ie 75 tons (462 armor) vs an equivalent heaviest of the Assault mech ie 100 tons (614 armor).

[Metus regem]

Rhent, on 10 November 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Durability of an Assault = No. You can zombie with an IS Assault, you can't with a clan equivalent. You can stack your weaponry on one side and use the other for a shield, its not impossible to do it with the Clan but significantly harder due to symmetrical hard point allocations and lack of critical slots.

A Madcat is the heaviest of the Heavy mechs, ie 75 tons (462 armor) vs an equivalent heaviest of the Assault mech ie 100 tons (614 armor).

that being said, I'd rather fight an Atlas over a Timber Wolf... yet a Timber Wolf before fighting a Banshee....

[Demonic]

Rhent, on 10 November 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Durability of an Assault = No. You can zombie with an IS Assault, you can't with a clan equivalent. You can stack your weaponry on one side and use the other for a shield, its not impossible to do it with the Clan but significantly harder due to symmetrical hard point allocations and lack of critical slots.

A Madcat is the heaviest of the Heavy mechs, ie 75 tons (462 armor) vs an equivalent heaviest of the Assault mech ie 100 tons (614 armor).

Madcat CT hitbox is smaller and much difficult to hit than sidetorsos, Madcat has XL engine, since you have to destroy RT and LT, you have to lower 64+64=128 points of armor and 32+32=64 points of internal structure. It is the opposite to Catapult, its sidetorsos are much smaller than CT, so Catapult usually dies on CT.
We can compare this to a 100tn IS assault, the Atlas, its CT is very easy to focus, and it usually has a standard engine, so you have to lower 124 of CT total armor and 62 internal structure, as you can see, less protection than Madcat 2 sidetorsos.
If you mount XL engine on Atlas, you only need to lower 84 armor + 42 internal to kill him.

Madcat is much faster and agile than Atlas, so it turns much difficult to hit and focus, it has much faster torso turn speed so you can protect your damaged sidetorso much better, or get in cover much faster.

Edited by Demonic, 10 November 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Telmasa]

Metus regem, on 10 November 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

that being said, I'd rather fight an Atlas over a Timber Wolf... yet a Timber Wolf before fighting a Banshee....

Even if it's a Wubshee?



I really can't figure out why or how this discussion is continuing.

Mech class is PURELY associated with the tonnage of the mech. That's all there is to it, and that's all there ever is GOING to be to it.

The only way to make the Mad Cat an assault mech would be to buff it by 5-25 tons.

Which, I think, goes against the whole point the OP was making, in that it's too "overpowered" for a heavy (it really isn't, it's just one of only two 75 ton heavy mechs out at the moment, and the Orion is the other one...enough said about that). You'd end up buffing what you see as an already-too-awesome mech.

Any other conjecture or theorizing about it is a completely moot point.

Edited by Telmasa, 10 November 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[QuantumButler]

Telmasa, on 10 November 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Even if it's a Wubshee?



I really can't figure out why or how this discussion is continuing.

Mech class is PURELY associated with the tonnage of the mech. That's all there is to it, and that's all there ever is GOING to be to it.

The only way to make the Mad Cat an assault mech would be to buff it by 5-25 tons.

Which, I think, goes against the whole point the OP was making, in that it's too "overpowered" for a heavy (it really isn't, it's just one of only two 75 ton heavy mechs out at the moment, and the Orion is the other one...enough said about that). You'd end up buffing what you see as an already-too-awesome mech.

Any other conjecture or theorizing about it is a completely moot point.

Yeah this.

The Mad Cat is def a Tier-1 clanmech Endgame Avatar, though

[Tombstoner]

LordKnightFandragon, on 06 November 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

But that one is soooo slow.......atleast in MW4, I found it annoying to drive....

The TW and all 75 ton mechs just happen to sit on the optimum speed to engine tonnage ratio. Then add in desired hard points and its no wonder the TW is considered OP. The trade off for speed get prohibitive after this point unless you use an XL but thats a death sentence for IS.

[Metus regem]

Telmasa, on 10 November 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

Even if it's a Wubshee?

Especially a Wubshee... I'd rather fight a Timber Wolf before fighting any form of Banshee... I though that I had made that clear in my previous post...

[Rhent]

Demonic, on 10 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Madcat CT hitbox is smaller and much difficult to hit than sidetorsos, Madcat has XL engine, since you have to destroy RT and LT, you have to lower 64+64=128 points of armor and 32+32=64 points of internal structure. It is the opposite to Catapult, its sidetorsos are much smaller than CT, so Catapult usually dies on CT.
We can compare this to a 100tn IS assault, the Atlas, its CT is very easy to focus, and it usually has a standard engine, so you have to lower 124 of CT total armor and 62 internal structure, as you can see, less protection than Madcat 2 sidetorsos.
If you mount XL engine on Atlas, you only need to lower 84 armor + 42 internal to kill him.

Madcat is much faster and agile than Atlas, so it turns much difficult to hit and focus, it has much faster torso turn speed so you can protect your damaged sidetorso much better, or get in cover much faster.

It really depends on how you want to fight the mad cat. Most Madcats are jumpers and they are fast enough to torso turn out of most damage. What you do instead is leg a Madcat. Once its moving at 40 Kph, its so much easier to manage. It really depends on the mech that is fighting them. I've been running ECM lights lately, and that is how I like to fight them myself.

If you got a Banshee 3E with the 3 AC/5 2 PPC and can aim, the Madcat is torso'd every 4 seconds assuming he can't torso turn out of it.

[Sandpit]

No, it's 75 tons. That should pretty much answer the question?

[IraqiWalker]

Rhent, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Thanks for proving my point about BAD's and displaying it. You don't know math and critical space slots.

Ok, seriously, do you even play this game? Have you piloted clan mechs, and have you played successfully against them, outside of the underhive?

Have you used mech construction? Despite the 4 tons, and the 4 slots of JJs (only applicable to the S pods by the way, so good job on having bad math applicable to only one particular scenario), the T-Wolf still has more firepower, and durability than a summoner. Remember, clan weapons don't take up a lot of space, and unlike the summoner, the T-Wolf has decent hitboxes, while the Summoner can't shield ANYTHING at all, especially since it has really bad torso twist range compared to the T-Wolf.

The T-Wolf has more hardpoints, a LOT more hardpoints, and tonnage to spare, because it has both ENDO AND FF, allowing it to literally run any weapon combination it wants. The Summoner only has FF, and has 5 JJs hardwired in there. Plus it's extremely anemic. The simple fact that a Locust can bring as much firepower as a Summoner (except for the LRM one) speaks volumes for how underwhelming the Summoner is. It is literally the Dragon's clan counterpart. Fulfills the same role, and works the same way.

You're comparing a Dragon to a Cataphract right now. If you knew anything about the mechs in this game, and mech construction, you'd actually stop this discussion and realize just how wrong you are for comparing literally one of the top 3 best mechs in the game, with one of the worst mechs in the game, and saying it's just as bad.

Rhent, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

First: A madcat to sport 4 MIssile Hard Points has a 4 ton JJ tax placed on the chassis. With full armor, the Madcat has 23 tons of free space or has 31.28% of its tonnage devoted to weapons. Whereas a Summoner to run 4 missile hard points has a 5 ton tax placed on the chassis. With full armor, the Summoner has 20 tons of free space or has 29.95% of tonnage devoted to weapons. The nerf that was applied to the Madcat was specifically to Missile Builds, which gave the Madcat its long or short range heat to damage punch. If the Madcat is piloting a LRM 15 build, he will have to place his ammo in the arms.

Did you even read the patch notes? The nerf is only to the S pods (which carry the most missiles,) but all other ST pods have no problems, no weight or slot penalties, and you can (this might be revolutionary to you) run the mech with 1 or no S-pods.

basically, the LRM builds are fine, SRM6 builds are okay, but 4xSRM6 or 4xLRM15 builds have to deal with a little bit of inconvenience, mainly the LRM builds, the 4xSRM6 builds are still just as good. 4xALRM15s are the ones that you can't do anymore.

Just because you "I win" button doesn't let you win as hard, doesn't mean it's not strong, just means you're not that good with the mech in the first place, if the only thing that allowed you to use it well is an exploit due to a lapse in judgement on the devs part.

Rhent, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Second: The nerf placed the Madcat into the Summoner range for available weapon space when the pilot chose to boat missiles. The Madcat pilot is now forced to run laser or clan ac builds, which after the quirkening are less than stellar.

Sorry to tell you this, but you are objectively wrong there. As mentioned above, you can't boat energy plus missiles now, but you can boat LRMs (using S pods), you can boat energy, or ballistics however you want. You just can't effectively boat 2 of those at the same time anymore. You can still boat SRMs+Energy just fine. Also, the laservomit build is still one of the very best (again, top 3) builds in the game.

The T-Wolf can still turn better, shield better, carry more guns, and jump just as good as the Summoner, while being better at everything else.

I don't even know how this discussion is still going on, the T-Wolf is clearly a great tier 1 mech, while the Summoner, on all respects, is not. When the game devs, plus everyone that knows what they're talking about is telling you that you're wrong, you shouldn't keep insisting on a clearly wrong opinion.

Rhent, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

Third: If you need AMS to deal with LRM's you are a BAD. I'm sorry, there is not other thing to write to you now.

I clearly said "the underhive, who still don't know how to mount AMS". Where did I say that I needed AMS myself? Please don't make assumptions on your own. If you noticed, all of my statements come either from your own observations revealing a lot more than you intended, or from basic common sense related to mech construction, and stats. (the least armed TBR variant is the C with a minimum of 6. while the most armed SMN variant has 6 hardpoints at best.

[Brody319]

I have never been afraid of T-wolves. Really you understand how weak they are when you pilot them. Unlike the catapult, the Timberwolf has SUPER big side torso. I mean bringing missiles only make them bigger. Its like if you changed the Catapult's missile arms into side torsos. Mix in the fact that if you lose both side torsos you die, you can see the weakness. Its not hard at all to kill one, just aim for the shoulders which are less armored than the CT. also the location of the head makes it really easy to hit.

[Karl Marlow]

Davegt27, on 06 November 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

Simple question

Should the TW be classed as an Assault Mech?

Hold on let me check.



*shuffle shuffle*

Ah here we go...now let's see.

*several minutes of computer beeps*

Just give it a second. These are massive computations we are doing here.

*Tears off a print out*

Ah good let's see the result.

75 < 80

Nope. TW should not be an assault.

[Yanlowen Cage]

NO!

[Rhent]

IraqiWalker, on 10 November 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Ok, seriously, do you even play this game? Have you piloted clan mechs, and have you played successfully against them, outside of the underhive?

Have you used mech construction? Despite the 4 tons, and the 4 slots of JJs (only applicable to the S pods by the way, so good job on having bad math applicable to only one particular scenario), the T-Wolf still has more firepower, and durability than a summoner. Remember, clan weapons don't take up a lot of space, and unlike the summoner, the T-Wolf has decent hitboxes, while the Summoner can't shield ANYTHING at all, especially since it has really bad torso twist range compared to the T-Wolf.

The T-Wolf has more hardpoints, a LOT more hardpoints, and tonnage to spare, because it has both ENDO AND FF, allowing it to literally run any weapon combination it wants. The Summoner only has FF, and has 5 JJs hardwired in there. Plus it's extremely anemic. The simple fact that a Locust can bring as much firepower as a Summoner (except for the LRM one) speaks volumes for how underwhelming the Summoner is. It is literally the Dragon's clan counterpart. Fulfills the same role, and works the same way.

You're comparing a Dragon to a Cataphract right now. If you knew anything about the mechs in this game, and mech construction, you'd actually stop this discussion and realize just how wrong you are for comparing literally one of the top 3 best mechs in the game, with one of the worst mechs in the game, and saying it's just as bad.



Did you even read the patch notes? The nerf is only to the S pods (which carry the most missiles,) but all other ST pods have no problems, no weight or slot penalties, and you can (this might be revolutionary to you) run the mech with 1 or no S-pods.

basically, the LRM builds are fine, SRM6 builds are okay, but 4xSRM6 or 4xLRM15 builds have to deal with a little bit of inconvenience, mainly the LRM builds, the 4xSRM6 builds are still just as good. 4xALRM15s are the ones that you can't do anymore.

Just because you "I win" button doesn't let you win as hard, doesn't mean it's not strong, just means you're not that good with the mech in the first place, if the only thing that allowed you to use it well is an exploit due to a lapse in judgement on the devs part.



Sorry to tell you this, but you are objectively wrong there. As mentioned above, you can't boat energy plus missiles now, but you can boat LRMs (using S pods), you can boat energy, or ballistics however you want. You just can't effectively boat 2 of those at the same time anymore. You can still boat SRMs+Energy just fine. Also, the laservomit build is still one of the very best (again, top 3) builds in the game.

The T-Wolf can still turn better, shield better, carry more guns, and jump just as good as the Summoner, while being better at everything else.

I don't even know how this discussion is still going on, the T-Wolf is clearly a great tier 1 mech, while the Summoner, on all respects, is not. When the game devs, plus everyone that knows what they're talking about is telling you that you're wrong, you shouldn't keep insisting on a clearly wrong opinion.


I clearly said "the underhive, who still don't know how to mount AMS". Where did I say that I needed AMS myself? Please don't make assumptions on your own. If you noticed, all of my statements come either from your own observations revealing a lot more than you intended, or from basic common sense related to mech construction, and stats. (the least armed TBR variant is the C with a minimum of 6. while the most armed SMN variant has 6 hardpoints at best.

TLDR, I assume its MoooOOOO over you being all sandy and butthurt. Sorry for hurting your feelings but the truth hurts.