21 replies to this topic

[SolCrusher]

Looks like we need to look at removing ghost heat from the game now that quirks are out. We have no need for ghost heat with some of these quirks. Lowering the cool down of an AC2 just causes ghost heat to be triggered more often, same with reducing any weapons cool down time.

Anything that lowers cool down time on a weapon with ghost heat automatically makes heat an issue.

[SolCrusher]

for reference:

http://mwomercs.com/...tra-srm4-quirk/

[SolCrusher]

for reference

http://mwomercs.com/...s-after-quirks/

[Brody319]

Ghost heat is there to prevent massive alpha strikes. Other games have handled it by having slots not hard points. So for example the stalker in mechwarrior 4: mercenaries has several energy slots, but they have limited size, thus preventing a say 6 PPC stalker. The other games got away with not having a ghost heat type system not only by limiting equipment to what is gotten through salvage, but also by limiting the size of the weapons you could mount.
I think the most PPCs I could mount was 3 on the Whale.

Maybe PGI should look into something like this, would vastly greater balance the game, and would let them remove ghost heat.

[FupDup]

Brody319, on 06 November 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Ghost heat is there to prevent massive alpha strikes....

And yet, players created many different weapon combinations that didn't get a heat penalty.

That's one of the biggest problems with heat: It only affects a certain few loadouts, and it specifically tells you which loadouts to avoid if you want to alpha without a penalty. All you have to do is build a robot that stays less than or equal to the "max alpha" counter for each weapon and you're good to go.

[SolCrusher]

For Reference

http://mwomercs.com/...now-its-100-op/

[Foxfire]

The only thing that will allow for the removal of ghost heat, honestly, is the removal of instant convergence.

That is the onlything that would keep things like the 6 PPC stalker from being OP.

[FupDup]

Foxfire, on 06 November 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

The only thing that will allow for the removal of ghost heat, honestly, is the removal of instant convergence.

That is the onlything that would keep things like the 6 4 PPC stalker from being OP.

Fixed.

[SolCrusher]

I mostly want the ghost heat removed from auto cannons but honestly it should be removed as a whole. It's just broken, and PGI is making it worse. Why not just remove it so everything makes more sense. Who cares about the LOL builds that can be nuked from a far by artillery and air strikes.

[Kiiyor]

I endorse this, so my Awesome can alpha 4+ PPC's until all who oppose me are smoldering wrecks at my feet.

I would also like the ability to be one shot more often by DireWhales.

[Brody319]

Foxfire, on 06 November 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

The only thing that will allow for the removal of ghost heat, honestly, is the removal of instant convergence.

That is the onlything that would keep things like the 6 PPC stalker from being OP.

Mechwarrior 4: mercenaries had instant convergence. As my post said, It actually just wouldn't let you build a 6 PPC stalker, I think the maximum I could put on was 2 PPCs.



This is what I meant so its more clear. Instead of just weight being the limit, weapons took up slots, and each hardpoint had a limited slot size.

[Foxfire]

SolCrusher, on 06 November 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I mostly want the ghost heat removed from auto cannons but honestly it should be removed as a whole. It's just broken, and PGI is making it worse. Why not just remove it so everything makes more sense. Who cares about the LOL builds that can be nuked from a far by artillery and air strikes.

I agree that it should be removed. The problem is that Ghost heat is being used to mask other issues instead of actually addressing them.

[FupDup]

Brody319, on 06 November 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 4: mercenaries had instant convergence. As my post said, It actually just wouldn't let you build a 6 PPC stalker, I think the maximum I could put on was 2 PPCs.



This is what I meant so its more clear. Instead of just weight being the limit, weapons took up slots, and each hardpoint had a limited slot size.

You could have 4 PPCs on various mechs like the Nova Cat, Supernova, Warlord, Awesome, and some others. A good number of them could also run 3, like the Hauptmann and Behemoth.

[luxebo]

Brody319, on 06 November 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 4: mercenaries had instant convergence. As my post said, It actually just wouldn't let you build a 6 PPC stalker, I think the maximum I could put on was 2 PPCs.

This is what I meant so its more clear. Instead of just weight being the limit, weapons took up slots, and each hardpoint had a limited slot size.

There was something called the Nova Cat. Everyone enjoyed using 6xER LL. Not to mention that Awesome has 4 ER PPCs. Not to mention that the Supernova EIGHT Lasers of any kind, including continuous beam lasers.

Continuous beam lasers give more dps than anything in this game that we have at this moment. Even 4 Gauss Dire Whale. Even 6 UAC5 Dire Whale. Even 4 SRM6 1 AC20 4 ML AS7-S.

Edit: Dang got ninja'd. I almost forgot, Stalkers could hold like SRMs to no end, Heavy Gauss/UAC20, and any amount of lasers (ER LL).

And I forgot that the Longslong... er I mean Longbow can put 4 Arrow IV Clusters on it with at least 5 tons of armor. If anything didn't die yet it has now.

And Light PPCs were a thing back then so you could have 8 on a Supernova.

All in Mekpak 3.1. I miss the old days.

Edited by luxebo, 06 November 2014 - 09:20 PM.

[Brody319]

FupDup, on 06 November 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

You could have 4 PPCs on various mechs like the Nova Cat, Supernova, Warlord, Awesome, and some others. A good number of them could also run 3, like the Hauptmann and Behemoth.

Yes but 4 PPCs is much more tame than 6. the thing about the stalker is it could fire all of them at the same time and get away. With ghost heat you overheat and often times die with +4 PPCs now. Plus since we don't have the nova cat, super nova, and some of the others means that the threat of a 4 PPC mech is mitigated a bit. Gauss rifles are also restricted because of the number of slots it would take up in the ballistic. overall just seems like a more balanced system.

[FupDup]

Brody319, on 06 November 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Yes but 4 PPCs is much more tame than 6. the thing about the stalker is it could fire all of them at the same time and get away. With ghost heat you overheat and often times die with +4 PPCs now. Plus since we don't have the nova cat, super nova, and some of the others means that the threat of a 4 PPC mech is mitigated a bit. Gauss rifles are also restricted because of the number of slots it would take up in the ballistic. overall just seems like a more balanced system.

Keep in mind I didn't say no to a modified hardpoint system, I just pointed out that MW4 did in fact allow for more than 2 PPCs on many mechs.

As for hardpoints in general, the thing to keep in mind is that they're a great tool for chassis differentiation (similar to quirks), but they don't actually solve the underlying weapon balance issue. So if PPCs were overpowered (they aren't right now, but let's pretend that they were for the sake of argument) then the mech who got the most of the largest energy hardpoints would have a disproportionate advantage over its peers. Not to mention that many stock mechs also are built to be cheese right out of the box. The worst example of this is the Devastator, which comes stock with 2 PPCs + 2 Gauss Rifles, with 4 Medium Lasers as a bonus.

TL;DR: Hardpoints are cool for emphasizing chassis/variant strengths and weaknesses but they shouldn't be expected to achieve balance all by themselves.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

especially with cooldown quirks... I remember the AC/2 used to cause ghost heat within its own refire rate -.-

Brody319, on 06 November 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Ghost heat is there to prevent massive alpha strikes.

and yet that excuse was bullshit even when they gave us it.

Brody319, on 06 November 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 4: mercenaries had instant convergence. As my post said, It actually just wouldn't let you build a 6 PPC stalker, I think the maximum I could put on was 2 PPCs.



This is what I meant so its more clear. Instead of just weight being the limit, weapons took up slots, and each hardpoint had a limited slot size.

That looks like an atlas not a stalker

Brody319, on 06 November 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Yes but 4 PPCs is much more tame than 6. the thing about the stalker is it could fire all of them at the same time and get away. With ghost heat you overheat and often times die with +4 PPCs now. Plus since we don't have the nova cat, super nova, and some of the others means that the threat of a 4 PPC mech is mitigated a bit. Gauss rifles are also restricted because of the number of slots it would take up in the ballistic. overall just seems like a more balanced system.

The 6 ppc stalker was a joke, just like the 9 erppc direstar is now -.-

[Brody319]

FupDup, on 06 November 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Keep in mind I didn't say no to a modified hardpoint system, I just pointed out that MW4 did in fact allow for more than 2 PPCs on many mechs.

As for hardpoints in general, the thing to keep in mind is that they're a great tool for chassis differentiation (similar to quirks), but they don't actually solve the underlying weapon balance issue. So if PPCs were overpowered (they aren't right now, but let's pretend that they were for the sake of argument) then the mech who got the most of the largest energy hardpoints would have a disproportionate advantage over its peers. Not to mention that many stock mechs also are built to be cheese right out of the box. The worst example of this is the Devastator, which comes stock with 2 PPCs + 2 Gauss Rifles, with 4 Medium Lasers as a bonus.

TL;DR: Hardpoints are cool for emphasizing chassis/variant strengths and weaknesses but they shouldn't be expected to achieve balance all by themselves.

true but we currently have that problem with ECM and hard points. True hard points are great for changing entire variants of a mech, but currently any mech that can mount ECM is better than all other variants. Also you have problems with some mechs just not having the proper use. The Ravens are a good example. The hero mech has no energy hard points and before the quirk system was considered underpowered and generally useless because of the reliance on ballistic weapons.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 06 November 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

Keep in mind I didn't say no to a modified hardpoint system, I just pointed out that MW4 did in fact allow for more than 2 PPCs on many mechs.

As for hardpoints in general, the thing to keep in mind is that they're a great tool for chassis differentiation (similar to quirks), but they don't actually solve the underlying weapon balance issue. So if PPCs were overpowered (they aren't right now, but let's pretend that they were for the sake of argument) then the mech who got the most of the largest energy hardpoints would have a disproportionate advantage over its peers. Not to mention that many stock mechs also are built to be cheese right out of the box. The worst example of this is the Devastator, which comes stock with 2 PPCs + 2 Gauss Rifles, with 4 Medium Lasers as a bonus.

So just give the Devastator bunch of negative quirks. Easy.

[Thorqemada]

As sad as it is unlimited customization breaks the game and as MWO does not have the Hardpoint Size System like MW4 it needs Ghost Heat.

In this case i would have favoured the MW4 System...and Clans break the balance anyway.