209 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

WarHippy, on 07 November 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yes, but that is literary fluff. A single shot is the way it should be and the way it should remain.

I am no big expert of TT, but from what i see "rifles" should be this way.. There is a reason if rifles in BT are considered (from what i recall) very inferior weapons.

[Belorion]

LauLiao, on 07 November 2014 - 01:12 PM, said:

IS autocannons have always been pinpoint, single shell. It stems from TT rules that had all AC damage going to single locations.

No it doesn't...

http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/20

Quote

[color=#000000]An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.[/color]

[LordKnightFandragon]

Viktor Drake, on 07 November 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Well that depends. If you read the novels, ACs actually fire a stream of shells.

Lol, ive even got a TT Master rules book that says the same thing..."rapid-fire, auto-loading weapon that fires high-speed streams of high-explosive, armor-piercing shell".

If anything, the Clan ACs should maybe fire faster so the shots spread less, more like an MG42 and less like a .50cal in shot spread difference......

It would be neat to see maybe the IS ACs deal their damage over 2 shells, vs the Clan dealing it in like 4 or w/e it is now....make it more...bursty and cut down a bit on PPFLD while still letting the IS deal more damage with ACs over the clans.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 07 November 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[WarHippy]

Brody319, on 07 November 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

"Autocannon" Implies that is an "Automatic cannon" Currently only Clanners are like that.
In other mechwarrior games both Clan and regular ACs fire in bursts,

Both are automatic cannons so you are wrong on that. Automatic weapons continue to fire when you pull and hold the trigger, and that is what the IS ACs do.

[FupDup]

If IS ACs were burst, there's a good chance that they would be rendered inferior to lasers (yes, even IS lasers) unless compensatory buffs were applied at the same time. Of course, most people supporting burst-fire IS ACs don't propose such compensation buffs...

[Anarcho]

IS cannons are much better for that reason. Make the damage from IS acs spread!


*grabs the popcorn*

[SaltBeef]

The yen lo is known for it's devastating stream of depleted uranium shells not for it's clobber hammer in this game.
At close range all of the shells will likely hit the same target section.

Edited by SaltBeef, 07 November 2014 - 08:07 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 07 November 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

If IS ACs were burst, there's a good chance that they would be rendered inferior to lasers (yes, even IS lasers) unless compensatory buffs were applied at the same time. Of course, most people supporting burst-fire IS ACs don't propose such compensation buffs...

Or would the entire point be to nerf the ACs in a more lore-ish way? While also nerfing PPFLD and maybe making energy builds a tiny bit more viable. Besides, even in a short burst kinda way, the IS ACs still dont jam+spread damage all over the place....or spread damage all over the place with an LBX. They would just spread the damage a bit more, or have a chance to do so. My only proposal is to spread IS ACs into 2 shots instead of 1, with very little distance between shots, even less so then what the clans have now. Refire rate on them is fairly quick already. Wouldnt be to much reason to buff it. Besides, there are CD modules....Make them useful and kinda wanted if you want to specialize in your ACs roF...

If I made any buff, it would be the reduction in unlock cost of modules, by about 50% in both XP and Cbill...

[SaltBeef]

I think all burst cannon should be 3 shells divided by the damage number rounded up to the nearest factor. AC5 would be closer to 6 damage if all shells hit the target section. AC10 11 damage Ac20 21 damage. Ultras fire double streams at 1 pull 6 rounds with a small space between. double tap 12 shells with a High jam chance. Both IS and Clan. LBX gets the PPFLD rounds alternate with Scattershot.

[Escef]

Brody319, on 07 November 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

"Autocannon" Implies that is an "Automatic cannon" Currently only Clanners are like that.
In other mechwarrior games both Clan and regular ACs fire in bursts,

</sigh>

We have autocannons in real life. They are cannons with auto-loaders. They do not fire in bursts.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Even the Gauss shouldn't have 15 damage a projectile, if it fired more than one round in ten seconds (whatever number of rounds fired would simply add up to 15 damage total over 10 seconds).

It's too bad that damage and heat wasn't translated better into MWO, it's what lead to doubled armor/internals, Heat Scale (Ghost Heat) and our skewed damage outputs.

[SaltBeef]

Auto loaders, Ruskies and French use them,..they are unreliable and fire at a slower rate than manned loaders. In the near future tanks will be unmanned laser armed and burn trough armor like butter almost there already.
105 stryker is the exception.

Edited by SaltBeef, 07 November 2014 - 11:01 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Praetor Knight, on 07 November 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

Even the Gauss shouldn't have 15 damage a projectile, if it fired more than one round in ten seconds (whatever number of rounds fired would simply add up to 15 damage total over 10 seconds).

It's too bad that damage and heat wasn't translated better into MWO, it's what lead to doubled armor/internals, Heat Scale (Ghost Heat) and our skewed damage outputs.

LOL, or does it actually only fire 1 round in 10 seconds? Cuz after all, im sure those coils have to recharge their energy after each shot. It would probably be a single HV slug of doom, but with a roF of 10....ofc, MWO, I would love to see it with TT Dmg, Rof, and all that jazz added in.....just for 1 week....I wonder how much better it would be.

[Lucian Nostra]

SpiralFace, on 07 November 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

"Autocannons" don't mean "big machine guns."

They are essentially main battlecannons with a machine fed, auto loading cannon (not requiring a loader crew position.)

Think of them like real world tanks that are attached to auto loaders:



Strykers: 6 rounds a minute = single round shot every 10 seconds feed from an autoloader.

WarHippy, on 07 November 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Both are automatic cannons so you are wrong on that. Automatic weapons continue to fire when you pull and hold the trigger, and that is what the IS ACs do.

Escef, on 07 November 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

</sigh>

We have autocannons in real life. They are cannons with auto-loaders. They do not fire in bursts.

Tank cannons with autoloaders are not autocannons..

Autocannons are defined as rapid firing cannons, real life examples include the Bushmaster mounted on the Bradley IFV and Rarden 30 on the British IFVs.

The difference? A autoloader does not make a weapon AUTOMATIC.. it requires the breach to be opened and a new round loaded in before the breach is sealed.. that isn't how automatic weapons work..





Those are autocannons..


edit: here's a video of autoloaders

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 08 November 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[CocoaJin]

I never understood how BT/TT reconciled streams of multiple rounds per "shot" and single location impacts. I'm beginning to think the "streams of rounds" was a creative liberty for the novels to create an "awe" factor to the weapon and engagement...just like the horrible Stackpole fiasco.

[Crockdaddy]

Lucian Nostra, on 07 November 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

Tank cannons with autoloaders are not autocannons..

Autocannons are defined as rapid firing cannons, real life examples include the Bushmaster mounted on the Bradley IFV and Rarden 30 on the British IFVs.

The difference? A autoloader does not make a weapon AUTOMATIC.. it requires the breach to be opened and a new round loaded in before the breach is sealed.. that isn't how automatic weapons work..





Those are autocannons..

and no one actually cares. It is a definition, make it what you want.

[Y E O N N E]

Lucian Nostra, on 07 November 2014 - 11:19 PM, said:

The difference? A autoloader does not make a weapon AUTOMATIC.. it requires the breach to be opened and a new round loaded in before the breach is sealed.. that isn't how automatic weapons work..

That is exactly how automatic weapons, or any other kind of conventional firearms, work. How do you think the round gets in there? Round gets fired, gases or recoil (usually, sometimes this is electrically operated) push the bolt back to open the breech and eject the spent cartridge, and then when those forces subside a spring pushes the bolt back into position, stripping a new round from the magazine and locking it into the breech for firing.

Automatic simply means a gun fires as long as the trigger is held. That's it. There's nothing saying it has to have a high rate of fire. And, if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that the original definition for the term "automatic" as it relates to firearms means that the piece is self-loading (like an M1911 pistol in .45 ACP...which stands for Automatic Colt Pistol), not that it keeps firing if the trigger is held.

A 40mm Bofors is an autocannon. A 20mm Hispano is an autocannon. A 30 mm Bushmaster is an autocannon. If a 200 mm gun loads itself and fires again as long as the trigger is held...it is an autocannon.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 07 November 2014 - 11:37 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

LordKnightFandragon, on 07 November 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

LOL, or does it actually only fire 1 round in 10 seconds? Cuz after all, im sure those coils have to recharge their energy after each shot. It would probably be a single HV slug of doom, but with a roF of 10....ofc, MWO, I would love to see it with TT Dmg, Rof, and all that jazz added in.....just for 1 week....I wonder how much better it would be.

Do you know what coils are? Check this out. Basically they're just wires most of the time.

So a Rail Gun is different from a Gauss/Coil Gun, it seems from what I read around here many think the BT Gauss functions like a Rail Gun.

A Rail Gun would be better off with one big projectile due to wear and tear and manner of firing. I've gotta double check if it was used as some point in the BT universe or not.

A Gauss/Coil Gun could fire a series of projectiles when powered up and cycling a charge in a multistage system, it would simply be a matter of sequencing which coils are powered up to accelerate the projectile(s).

BT Gauss



I'm sure that the Fusion Engine can keep sending a charge through the coils, BT Gauss does go boom when the capacitors get damaged after all.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 07 November 2014 - 11:38 PM.

[Brody319]

We are applying real life science to a series created like 30 years ago.
It doesn't matter if it fires in bursts or in a single ******* slug. According to newtons laws:
3 slugs at velocity A = 1 Slug at velocity B
if A is 1/3 the velocity of B

The only difference is ammo, and if the game counts 3 tiny slugs as 1 "round" then its the same ******* thing.

[Y E O N N E]

Actually, the difference is in how much you can twist the damage away. If DakkaWolves had IS cannons, I'd be dead a lot more often. Instead, I can take my squishy Locust or Blackjack and twist away the damage while I retreat.

Also, 30 years ago, they knew all this stuff we're talking about. It's not exactly new information. They knew most of it by the late 19th century, early 20th.

Praetor Knight, on 07 November 2014 - 11:35 PM, said:

Do you know what coils are? Check this out. Basically they're just wires most of the time.

So a Rail Gun is different from a Gauss/Coil Gun, it seems from what I read around here many think the BT Gauss functions like a Rail Gun.

A Rail Gun would be better off with one big projectile due to wear and tear and manner of firing. I've gotta double check if it was used as some point in the BT universe or not.

A Gauss/Coil Gun could fire a series of projectiles when powered up and cycling a charge in a multistage system, it would simply be a matter of sequencing which coils are powered up to accelerate the projectile(s).

BT Gauss



I'm sure that the Fusion Engine can keep sending a charge through the coils, BT Gauss does go boom when the capacitors get damaged after all.

Fusion engine can supply lots of energy, but it can't supply that energy fast enough. That is why you have to build it up in capacitors first.

But yes, a rail-gun has the problem of barrel wear while the coil-gun does not, since the round floats. A fast-firing rail-gun would be...problematic...for prolonged use. However, a rail-gun is also a lot simpler to build since a coil-gun requires precise sequencing and timing while a rail-gun simply dumps the energy into the rails and calls it a day.