82 replies to this topic

[UrsusMorologus]

Target lock is how we share information about enemy movement, not just LRMs but also being able to reposition to close off an advance. If you are in a scout and see a lance flanking along a corridor and cannot lock, then nobody else on your team can see it either.

The whole system needs a remake. BAP is no more broken than any other part of it.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Actually I am not necessarily opposed to BAP keeping its 360m but they need to change it so that only the BAP carrying mech actually benefits from being able to negate ECM. Basically you equip BAP and you and you alone can now target ECM mechs within the 360m bubble.

I might even say we go so far as make it so that the BAP carrying mech can actually share it targeting data but only for its active target. Basically BAP equiped mech gets withing 360m and hits "R" which lights up ONLY that target to others on his team.

The issue with BAP is it is a lightweight, passive counter for all ECM within 360m that any mech can mount at will. Make it only be a benefit for the BAP equipped mech and/or make it so a BAP equipped mech has to actively target an enemy to expose them, then BAP at 360m becomes very useful without causing ECM to become obsolete.

[Livewyr]

Yanlowen Cage, on 10 November 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

except by tag, narc and counter ecm, and oh yeah the good ole Mark 1 eye ball for direct fire. All ecm really really shields against absolutely (conditionally) is lurms. it's other use is screening for sneak attacks and flanks. ECM does not provide any protection from direct fire weapons, EXCEPT, that you can not lock onto the target under ecm that you can see. you can still get range info anyway. thus knowing how far you have to target.

TAG:750: Trained on target for entire duration of effect.
Narc:600: If you can hit them.
PPC: 1500 If you can hit them...and then for 4 seconds (lolz)
ECCM:180 Fat lot of good that does.
ECM: Infinite outside 200. Does not have to train on a target. Does not have to hit the target to block targeting.

Ultimatum X, on 10 November 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

You say that as if there should be more of them, would you like more equipment that did that?


If IDF is ever dealt with, then we can deal with ECM.

In addition, having some form of a stealth mechanic is good IMO - so unless the devs add some huge passive/active radar system like Roland suggested, then right now this is all we have.

I am an advocate of making LRMs IDF only with TAG/Narc. (It was part of my proposal to Russ to balance ECM.)

W A R K H A N, on 10 November 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Not targetable that's not true. I used to run a tag on my catapult k2 just for the purpose of uncovering ecm. It's exactly the same situation where everyone complains about lrms but most people don't run ams...instead try to squeeze every last bit of fire power out of their mech.

But that said, this change is just a band aid. What we need is ecm working closer to how it works in lore, and a better information warfare system.

A: Unlike almost all counters, ECM requires nothing to do its job.
B: I agree, ECM needs to work like it did in Lore.. then BAP can too, and then later they can add "Stealth Armor."

Viktor Drake, on 10 November 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Actually I am not necessarily opposed to BAP keeping its 360m but they need to change it so that only the BAP carrying mech actually benefits from being able to negate ECM. Basically you equip BAP and you and you alone can now target ECM mechs within the 360m bubble.

I might even say we go so far as make it so that the BAP carrying mech can actually share it targeting data but only for its active target. Basically BAP equiped mech gets withing 360m and hits "R" which lights up ONLY that target to others on his team.

The issue with BAP is it is a lightweight, passive counter for all ECM within 360m that any mech can mount at will. Make it only be a benefit for the BAP equipped mech and/or make it so a BAP equipped mech has to actively target an enemy to expose them, then BAP at 360m becomes very useful without causing ECM to become obsolete.

Sure; when ECM only sensor-cloaks you from one target at a time.

Edited by Livewyr, 10 November 2014 - 10:51 AM.

[Zerberus]

Yanlowen Cage, on 10 November 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Point that some of you seem to be missing is that that problem of "ECM" was a nail sticking up. But instead of using a hammer to fix it, PGI used a howitzer.

While i agree that the range could be toned in a bit, 180m is in fact too short, for one specific reason, one which you seem to have overlooked:

IS LRMs have 180m minimum range.

If BAP has 180m counter range, you`ve still essentially completely shut down his weapons systems, because when he can breal ECM he can`t fire.

Also, you and many others seem to overlook that ECM has a 180m AOE Stealth for the entire team. This was actually the much more game breaking issue.

That is why the following arguments do not work the way you intend, but as follows:

Quote

I do not see how matching the range of ECM to BAP (180 meters) is in any way making ECM OP again. all it does is make the BAP equipped mech have to get as close to the ECM make as the ECM mech is required to get to him.

Except that the ECM mech can open up on the BAP mech during the approach while the BAP mech has only visual targeting with no info. That is a very clear advantage, even without missiles. YOu can select specific locations to target, whereas he not only has to guess where you might be damaged, but use his Mk. I Eyeballs and hopefully some skill to effectively guage your distance and lead accordingly.

Quote

For example. if I want to shut down a missile boat in an ecm mech, I have to get with in 180 of him to disrupt his targeting locks.

Or within 180m of his target, which is why 2-3 ECM mechs could completely shut down all targeting for the entire enemy team (and still can if no BAPs, TAGs , NARCs or ECM are equipped on teh other team). 1 ECM light, 1 DDC, 1 scout /harassment group, 1 "hammer and anvil" group. Most basic tactic ever, and requires only 2 ECM mechs to carry out with almost total impunity. Chase the squirrel, find the atlas, die, never see a single dorito.

Some people seem to think that ECM is only an issue for LRM users. But how exactly are Pugs supposed to coordinate anything when they have completely empty readouts? ANd when 2-ecm lights come whizzing through they can`T even use the minimap anymore, and they mas as well give up.

ECM was never intended to be the Magic Jesus Box that it is, if lore is a measure our current ECM isn`t Guardian but closer Angel AND inclues an AE Null Signature System.

IMO It was long overdue for teh pendulum to swing back in the other direction, like in 2 years overdue. The ECM guys can get hit hard for a week or 2 just like everyoone else, they could probaly even do with a good month or so for good measure

Edited by Zerberus, 10 November 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[nehebkau]

How about now we make it so that it takes 4x as long to get a missile lock on a target where you don't have LOS...i.e. getting fed data by an ally. Then you can keep BAP where it is.

Edited by nehebkau, 10 November 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Ecm is used in the exact opposite role that it was intended to be used for in game. mechs were only supposed to be targetable within line of sight. The only way to get a BVR (Beyond visual range) lock was to have a C3 mech close to the target or for that target to have been narced. Then ECM could counter the Narc, bap, or fire control system of the mech INSIDE it's bubble. Also it could cut off the spotting mech in a C3 network. Narc also had the ability to slow target locks on mechs that it covers and reduce enemy sensor range. not totally block all sensors.

Vice all the nerfs I would rather see ecm implemented as it was intended to be used. And I believe the above LOS targeting rule with narc,bap,C3, and ecm would not only fix the ecm issue, it would rain in lurmage. also it would, via the C3 network, encourage more people to play in groups. As the benefits of having shared target in the network would outweigh the pug life soloness. with the above rules in place, the use of these equipments would totally change the dynamic of why we play what mechs we play in group and while pugging.

[Mad Ox]

ECM is made very powerful in game through mechanics. Result = ECM is overloaded in game people silly not to use.

AP over-buffed a silly amount to counter ECM. Result = People cry over how useless it is and AP way to good. General population follows trends and removes ECM for other options or goes to other none ECM Mechs.

Next : Once ECM returns to more regulated amount of use AP will get Zapped down to a more reasonable amount.

Just following the crowd and adjusting to use it most effectively.

[Deathlike]

"A reason" why BAP got a buff is to justify the existence of the Mist Lynx. That hardwired BAP better be useful.

The indirect change is that ECM is "less effective", but still 100% improperly balanced.

[Rhent]

El Bandito, on 10 November 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Eat your own words.

https://twitter.com/...893083481210880

PGI actually wanted less LRMs, hence the 10% damage nerf on LRMs, but being PGI, they had managed to inadvertently offset the nerfs with BAP changes and LRM quirks.

Dude, there was nothing inadvertant about what they did. Piranha would have to be staffed by the most incompetent and ignorant rules master available not to understand that increasing BAP's range to be 100M beyond ECM would not effectively create a LRM apocalypse.

I tell people to quit carrying narc, its useless now. Just run BAP and you just countered all ECM over the ridge now. Brawlers now have no ECM cloak. My LRM Boat is eating mechs for breakfast now. It should NOT be this easy for a LRM boat to operate.

[Lykaon]

Ultimatum X, on 10 November 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

The new RADIUS on active probe is too large, because any mech can mount one.

It's one thing to be a counter, and quite another for you to be able to deny a huge section of the map.



Unfortunately a lot of players don't seem to understand how a huge radius, on an easy to slot item that can be stacked x12 is problematic.

That, or they just love their LRMs.

Seems to me a great deal of the dislike for BAP range changes has to do with the need to change the deployment of ECM.

Previously an ECM mech didn't really need to think much about what was going on beyond "I have a bubble 360m across that gives all my friends super stealth and immunity to missiles."

Now you need to keep in mind that any enemy mech may be using a BAP. Your ECM mech's battlefield possition as been altered from forward or mid deployment to a rear deployment.

Keep your ECM back behind your lines but within 180m of friendlies ahead of you.The enemy BAP maybe within range of your team mates but it's not in range of your ECM so it keeps working.

To support this tactic it is also important for your team's faster mechs to maintain a good perimeter to keep enemy BAP from slipping in behind the formation.

[El Bandito]

Rhent, on 10 November 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

Dude, there was nothing inadvertant about what they did. Piranha would have to be staffed by the most incompetent and ignorant rules master available not to understand that increasing BAP's range to be 100M beyond ECM would not effectively create a LRM apocalypse.

I tell people to quit carrying narc, its useless now. Just run BAP and you just countered all ECM over the ridge now. Brawlers now have no ECM cloak. My LRM Boat is eating mechs for breakfast now. It should NOT be this easy for a LRM boat to operate.

You mean ECM mechs now actually have to think about their positioning? Good.

As for Lurm boats being so easy to use now, I am a career Lurmer, and I find the job hadn't become any easier post-patch.

However, the Cheatwolf is being released tomorrow and I do expect LRMs blotting out the sky for few weeks.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 November 2014 - 03:10 PM.

[Abivard]

Willard Phule, on 10 November 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

It really depends on which queue you're talking about.

In the group queue, where you have the ability to make sure your lance has everything covered, I can see how the range might be excessive.

But in the solo queue, where 50-80% of your team is inexperienced and relies solely on LRMs, active probes are the only thing you've got that'll bring down the ECM. We don't see a lot of TAG or NARC in the solo queue since everyone is out for the kills and cbills.

Do you even play solo?

Are you so far down in Elo hell that you only get matched with new player or less Elo rated people?

So much QQ about solo queue that isn't true.

Hmm that almost rhymed.. anyways.
Tag,Narc and LRM's are present in almost every single solo queue drop, ECM /BAP is is also found on both teams in the vast majority of drops, rarely will there be no ECM or only one team with ECM.

In Group drops is where TAG,NARC and LRM's are found less and less as the skill of the groups increases.

I drop in both queues, solo more than group simply by the nature of things of course.
I play a wide range of mechs as well as a wide range of weapon types and groupings.

in any case, the new counter range is a good move for either queue, ECM is a piece of equipment that should remain in the game but that doesn't mean it should be all powerful and immune from other equipped items such as BAP or TAG.

[Rhent]

El Bandito, on 10 November 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

You mean ECM mechs now actually have to think about their positioning? Good.

As for Lurm boats being so easy to use now, I am a career Lurmer, and I find the job hadn't become any easier post-patch.

However, the Cheatwolf is being released tomorrow and I do expect LRMs blotting out the sky for few weeks.

ECM carrying mechs were able to effectively shield their teams mechs at the ridge line, as of the BAP patch, that isn't possible now. I've been running my 3H lately and its significantly easier to get locks than it was in the past.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

Agree with original post Bap is way too good now..it does need a range reduction....

Ecm max range is 180, Bap should be 200-250, Clan Bap + 50-100 above Inner Sphere range...

Full disclosure, I do like running in a Raven 3l, so I might be a little biased....However after the introduction of the quirks and new weapons values in the last patch, my current build is no where near as effective as it was pre-patch...

[SharpCookie]

ECM has long been overpowered for sniping and against locked missiles. I'm glad for these changes, and I never had problems with LRMs when playing as assaults.

Edited by SharpCookie, 10 November 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deathlike, on 10 November 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

"A reason" why BAP got a buff is to justify the existence of the Mist Lynx. That hardwired BAP better be useful.

The indirect change is that ECM is "less effective", but still 100% improperly balanced.

I disagree. The reason BAP got buffed is because of the Hellbringer, at 65 ton heavy mech, capable of running at 89 kph, mounting 23 tons of weapons and DHS and sporting around 422 armor max. PGI knows that if ECM was left as is, OPed or not, that the forums would face and earth-shattering cry of epic proportions.

So they basically made it so the Hellbringer loses about 80% of the effectiveness of its ECM since in most cases it is almost always going to be in the thick of fighting at ranges likely between 200-400m.

Of course this breaks ECM for light mechs who are also trying to fight within 200-400m in order to keep their team screened but PGI loves to break a half dozen things to fix another even if no fix is really needed.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 November 2014 - 04:44 PM.

[Abivard]

ZippySpeedMonkey, on 10 November 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Agree with original post Bap is way too good now..it does need a range reduction....

Ecm max range is 180, Bap should be 200-250, Clan Bap + 50-100 above Inner Sphere range...

Full disclosure, I do like running in a Raven 3l, so I might be a little biased....However after the introduction of the quirks and new weapons values in the last patch, my current build is no where near as effective as it was pre-patch...

Your build has many bugs and exploits, the ECM is icing on top of them, very thick ,creamy and extremely sugary...and now that there is a tenth less sugar you are QQ'n?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Zerberus, on 10 November 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

While i agree that the range could be toned in a bit, 180m is in fact too short, for one specific reason, one which you seem to have overlooked:

IS LRMs have 180m minimum range.

If BAP has 180m counter range, you`ve still essentially completely shut down his weapons systems, because when he can breal ECM he can`t fire.

Which is why building your mechs to be able to adapt to the situation as required rather than boating is always a good idea. I mean I can't count the times I am seen LRM boats go fully up on LRMs without mounting even one laser as back up and this is insane to me.

Also I have yet to see a game where ECM was capable of totally shutting down someone from using LRMs the entire match. With only 180m range, inevitably some mech will stray outside of cover or someone with drop a NARC on an enemy or light them up with TAG or someone will pop a UAV all of which are hard counters to ECM.

[Ultimax]

Lykaon, on 10 November 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Seems to me a great deal of the dislike for BAP range changes has to do with the need to change the deployment of ECM.

Previously an ECM mech didn't really need to think much about what was going on beyond "I have a bubble 360m across that gives all my friends super stealth and immunity to missiles."

Now you need to keep in mind that any enemy mech may be using a BAP. Your ECM mech's battlefield possition as been altered from forward or mid deployment to a rear deployment.

Keep your ECM back behind your lines but within 180m of friendlies ahead of you.The enemy BAP maybe within range of your team mates but it's not in range of your ECM so it keeps working.

To support this tactic it is also important for your team's faster mechs to maintain a good perimeter to keep enemy BAP from slipping in behind the formation.

This is what happens when force multipliers are allowed to stack indiscriminately.

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 10 November 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

I disagree. The reason BAP got buffed is because of the Hellbringer, at 65 ton heavy mech, capable of running at 89 kph, mounting 23 tons of weapons and DHS and sporting around 422 armor max. PGI knows that if ECM was left as is, OPed or not, that the forums would face and earth-shattering cry of epic proportions.

So they basically made it so the Hellbringer loses about 80% of the effectiveness of its ECM since in most cases it is almost always going to be in the thick of fighting at ranges likely between 200-400m.

Of course this breaks ECM for light mechs who are also trying to fight within 200-400m in order to keep their team screened but PGI loves to break a half dozen things to fix another even if no fix is really needed.

Perhaps... but it's a sure fired thing that PGI doesn't know how to balance it.