82 replies to this topic

[Astrocanis]

Curccu, on 10 November 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

No. It's good now IMO.
It's giving you long range targeting/locking and target info shielding, it's not supposed to prevent locking/targeting at short ranges for you and your team.

I agree. There are few things better than seeing the sky darken with enemy LRMs. Now where the hell did I put that shield?

[Sovery_Simple]

El Bandito, on 10 November 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

You mean ECM mechs now actually have to think about their positioning? Good.

As for Lurm boats being so easy to use now, I am a career Lurmer, and I find the job hadn't become any easier post-patch.

However, the Cheatwolf is being released tomorrow and I do expect LRMs blotting out the sky for few weeks.

Soooo, you think the ecm player should toss ecm on his mech, stand 180m behind the main group annnd.... **** off for the match? You know they're trying to do all the other things you normally do (find angles of approach, safe locations, firing lanes, sneaking in some good angled hits, making sure they're not being left alone to die or getting flanked) all while worrying about keeping idjits who wander off safe from lrm's because "it's okay I'm a jager I can take anything and ohgodwhyistheskyblack"

Hell, you know they are generally trying to figure out where they can go to disable enemy ECM, and when is the safest time to do so for the rest of their team around them (can our lrms hit the targets if I disrupt their ecm now? Will my brawlers be safe while I drop our coverage?)

Now they can't even do that without effectively removing themselves from the fight, or standing -outside- of decent cover because a BAP carrier came within 3/4ths of a mlas'es MAX range.

Tone it down to 270m, at max. That's close range. It's an AC20's and an IS Mlas ideal range. This gives the ECM mech 90m of wiggle room to keep his team safe, but still gives an absurd coverage area when stacked. We can tone from there.


Upside of the patch: 3 AMS on the kitfox now has a use. Though it's cute to consider all those crying about lrms atm, but happy with an ecm nerf xD

Edited by Whoops, 10 November 2014 - 07:48 PM.

[Foxfire]

The biggest mistake they've made is to make it where ECM provides target protection for everyone but the equipped mech(and thus, lock on protection).

As someone who always wanted to participate in the information warfare pillar of this game.. and who played the Raven 3L with the ECM equipped when it was useless weight so that I didn't become dependent upon having that extra weight availability, I was disappointed when they implemented ECM to be this godly piece of equipment instead of something that was actually information warfare in theme.

I want them to implement true information warfare and that cannot happen until they finally accept that ECM has to be be made in the theme of the Guardian ECM instead of a mishmash of the Angel ECM + Nul Signature system.

[Slepnir]

nehebkau, on 10 November 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

How about now we make it so that it takes 4x as long to get a missile lock on a target where you don't have LOS...i.e. getting fed data by an ally. Then you can keep BAP where it is.

3 little words-target deprivation module

it's already an item that can negate an entire class of weapons.

unless the revert ECM to lore where it only removes TAG, NARC, and artemis FCS, as well as jamming C3 BUT HAS NO EFFECT ON PREVENTING TARGET LOCK. then the BAP needs to stay just as powerful as it is being a hard counter.

[Chagatay]

BAP as it is now, gives you one more thing that you probably want to shoehorn in your mech whenever possible instead of previously just being a tax on guided missiles. IS AMS also got a huge buff with the ammo increase 1T is much easier to justify over 1.5T.

I like other non-weapon choices instead of more gunz, choices are OP.

[Mystere]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 10 November 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

until PGI revmap ECM into Guardian ECM any changes that affect easy mode jebus box are welcome.

Do you mean like the even easier-mode BAP/CAP, which any mech can mount?

Livewyr, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

How many pieces of equipment give a stealth shield where you cannot be targeted at any range outside 200 meters?

Electronic targeting may be affected, but Mark 1 eyeball targeting still works like a charm.

[Livewyr]

Mystere, on 10 November 2014 - 08:14 PM, said:

Electronic targeting may be affected, but Mark 1 eyeball targeting still works like a charm.

1: Mark I Eyeball is not as fast as mechanical redbox. (Initiative)
2: I cannot make missiles follow my eyeball...

[Foxfire]

Livewyr, on 10 November 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

1: Mark I Eyeball is not as fast as mechanical redbox. (Initiative)
2: I cannot make missiles follow my eyeball...

IMO, the magic dorito is also one of the barriers to information warfare and legitimization of roles such as scouting.

The 'automatic' highlighting of targets, IMO, happens, too fast. It really should be time based.. and then things like BAP and ECM could provide modifiers for/against the speed for the computer to highlight/be highlighted.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 10 November 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

1: Mark I Eyeball is not as fast as mechanical redbox. (Initiative)

I'm afraid your Mark 1s are defective. I don't need to wait for the Red Dorito to shoot the enemy.

[Foxfire]

Mystere, on 10 November 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm afraid your Mark 1s are defective. I don't need to wait for the Red Dorito to shoot the enemy.

You do, however, need the magic dorito to report back to your lance mates.

That and there are situations when it isn't obvious what is and what isn't an enemy mech where the magic dorito instantly points out in a big honking symbol 'Hey! Look at me!'

[Sovery_Simple]

Foxfire, on 10 November 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

You do, however, need the magic dorito to report back to your lance mates.

That and there are situations when it isn't obvious what is and what isn't an enemy mech where the magic dorito instantly points out in a big honking symbol 'Hey! Look at me!'

Typing out their grid still works.
Also, if it doesn't have a cool ranch dorito over it's head, shoot it. If it moves, shoot it again.

[Foxfire]

Whoops, on 10 November 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Typing out their grid still works.
Also, if it doesn't have a cool ranch dorito over it's head, shoot it. If it moves, shoot it again.

Generally good, but again.. certain situations where having a magic dorito appears clears up what was normally questionable or momentary.

I speak so as someone who has been spotted on a wild flank(aka I'm >600 M) on maps like tormaline Desert and have been spotted by people who only looked at my direction for a moment when spreading damage or gaining cover(and I only had a portion of my mech exposed, only enough to really keep an eye on them while I'm shooting a gap).

[Phex]

Lykaon, on 10 November 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

Seems to me a great deal of the dislike for BAP range changes has to do with the need to change the deployment of ECM.

Previously an ECM mech didn't really need to think much about what was going on beyond "I have a bubble 360m across that gives all my friends super stealth and immunity to missiles."

Now you need to keep in mind that any enemy mech may be using a BAP. Your ECM mech's battlefield possition as been altered from forward or mid deployment to a rear deployment.

Keep your ECM back behind your lines but within 180m of friendlies ahead of you.The enemy BAP maybe within range of your team mates but it's not in range of your ECM so it keeps working.

To support this tactic it is also important for your team's faster mechs to maintain a good perimeter to keep enemy BAP from slipping in behind the formation.

So you're saying that all ECM Mechs should remain far behind the lines, in order to offer protection to the team? Outside of all medium-range weapons? Great idea!
My max. efecktive weapons range is at 250m. So not engage in the fight, just stand around and give ECM? Hmmm ...

[Dago Red]

Ultimatum X, on 10 November 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

This is what happens when force multipliers are allowed to stack indiscriminately.

So you're saying that five people using 7.5 tons worth of equipment are overpowered for canceling out a single mechs 1.5 ton investment? But only if they position properly?

Yup sounds pretty OP.

Edited by Dago Red, 11 November 2014 - 02:05 AM.

[The Wakelord]

El Bandito, on 10 November 2014 - 04:12 AM, said:

I like the current range. 360 meters equal to the max range of CSSRMs so at least one of the worst weapons in the game can shine little bit brighter. ECM is still very powerful for its weight and still is a must have for a team, anyway.

Now it is slightly weaker than the omnipotent Magic Jesus Box it used to be.

How is it worth it still? Judging from you calling it an "omnipotent magic Jesus box" I feel you are quite biased against the ECM.

From someone who plays both ECM-lights & non-ECM lights, I've really toned down how often I play ECM lights now. It has been shoe-horned into sniper only, not team-support or harassment.

[Livewyr]

Foxfire, on 10 November 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

IMO, the magic dorito is also one of the barriers to information warfare and legitimization of roles such as scouting.

The 'automatic' highlighting of targets, IMO, happens, too fast. It really should be time based.. and then things like BAP and ECM could provide modifiers for/against the speed for the computer to highlight/be highlighted.

I would like the dorito to be a time-to-distance relation. (Farther away, the longer to identify, similar to how target information works.)

Mystere, on 10 November 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm afraid your Mark 1s are defective. I don't need to wait for the Red Dorito to shoot the enemy.

My Mk I Eyeball is not defective. It is, however, inefficient when compared to the insta-target of the mechanics. If I am looking around with my Mk1 EB and I am presently looking at the left side of my screen and a target slowly peeks out on the right side of my screen...the Mk 1 EB is not going to see it before the mechanics do. If I am not under ECM, and my opponent is..he gets initiative because his mech gives him a chime and a dorito for my mech instead of me spotting him a few precious hundredths of a second later. He shoots and re-covers.

In the peekaboo war, ECM is a drastic benefit.

[nehebkau]

Dago Red, on 11 November 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

So you're saying that five people using 7.5 tons worth of equipment are overpowered for canceling out a single mechs 1.5 ton investment? But only if they position properly?

Yup sounds pretty OP.

I think what he is saying that five people, on the smaller maps can completely eliminate the primary benefit of 6 mech chassis and eliminate ECM from the map entirely. You would do well to remember that PGI EXPECTS anyone piloting an Atlas DDC, Raven 3L, Cicada 3M, Spider 5D, Commando 2D to carry an ECM and IS THE REASON THOSE MECHS GOT VERY LITTLE IN THE WAY OF PERKS.

You also forget that on 4 of those mechs listed above, 1.5 tons is a HUGE amount of their available load-out space, on the COM 1-D that 1.5 tons is about 20% of your free loadout capacity. On a Direwolf, that small ECM would have an Equivalent cost of ~ 10tons. (Assuming XL Engines on the lights)

Edited by nehebkau, 11 November 2014 - 07:40 AM.

[Dago Red]

nehebkau, on 11 November 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

I think what he is saying that five people, on the smaller maps can completely eliminate the primary benefit of 6 mech chassis and eliminate ECM from the map entirely. You would do well to remember that PGI EXPECTS anyone piloting an Atlas DDC, Raven 3L, Cicada 3M, Spider 5D, Commando 2D to carry an ECM and IS THE REASON THOSE MECHS GOT VERY LITTLE IN THE WAY OF PERKS.

You also forget that on 4 of those mechs listed above, 1.5 tons is a HUGE amount of their available load-out space, on the COM 1-D that 1.5 tons is about 20% of your free loadout capacity. On a Direwolf, that small ECM would have an Equivalent cost of ~ 10tons. (Assuming XL Engines on the lights)

You are mistaking what I forget and what I think is relevant.

World smallest violin etc etc.......

Edited by Dago Red, 11 November 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[Cyberiad]

Mechwarrior 4 did ECM right by decreasing detectable range and increasing missile lock time. BAP was a direct counter by increasing detect range and decreasing lock time. However in MW4 all mechs could equip either equipment.

[Uncl Munkeh]

Why not set BAP at 180M and use modules to extend it?

That way it chews up module slots to have the longer range at the expense of something else, like laser range or cooldown....