181 replies to this topic

[Beartech]

Wait, perhaps its my reading comprehension failing but OP are you wanting a faster TTK???

Assaults die in seconds, 100 Ton Max Armor non XL.

If anything we need mechs that last longer so you can survive more than one engagement without being cored.
This would enable more tactics and multiple fronts instead of blob pack hunting.

I dare say that the Blob is a direct result of our paper armored mechs, huddled together in hopes of surviving the Meta "Running around Alpha Striking".

Just my 2 cents.

Thanks

[oldradagast]

Huh?

TTK is not "high" by any margin - play World of Warships to get a real feel for what armored war machines should be able to withstand in a beating. And, even if TTK was high, that is STILL not a problem since right now the game rewards:

• Hiding behind a rock because being noticed means being cored.
  
• Having somebody else in the blob in front of you, dying first.
  
• Staying with the blob because venturing off to flank or scout gets you killed if you face any sustained fire.

The game has a host of problems, ranging from imbalance issues - totally useless mechs and weapons vs. god-tier ones - lack of role warfare, perfect convergence, an obsessions over increasing DPS of everything to achieve "balance," out of control Quirks, horrible mech scaling, and so forth, but TTK being "too high" is not one of them.

Edited by oldradagast, 21 July 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Sir Wulfrick]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

This game having a relatively slow TTK is the reason why "the blob" dominates tactics, and why things like flanking maneuvers are basically pointless against competent opponents.

In order to effectively reduce the enemy team's ability to fight, you need to kill their mechs. Most importantly, you need to kill their mechs as fast as possible in order to minimize damage to your own team as well. For all but the most powerful mechs, 1 v 1 TTK is slow in this game. Slow enough that if one mech is losing a solo fight it can quite easily return to its team before dying. This is why focus fire is of utmost importance.

Similarly, if you attack a mech from an angle it is not currently observing, it almost always gets a chance to return fire. Combine this with relatively long cooldowns compared to other shooters, and the only way to effectively damage an enemy mech without simply trading damage with them is to hug cover obsessively. It also means that trying to "flank" a prepared defensive position is pointless because getting the first shot in combat is only a minor advantage, rather than a decisive one.

Don't get me wrong, I think this game is fun with relatively slow TTK, but suggesting even *slower* TTK as a way to improve gameplay is incredibly misguided.

You were there back in the early days of closed beta, I know you were, we fought together and against each other enough times. Surely you must remember the bad old days when mechs of any sort would die within seconds of an engagement starting. You really sure you want to go back to that?

I agree that blob tactics ought to be discouraged, but I feel that better map design to encourage actual reconnaissance and the requirement for teams to split their forces would be much better solutions than a general reduction in TTK. At higher levels the game is unforgiving enough as it is.

[Angus McFife VI]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

This game having a relatively slow TTK is the reason why "the blob" dominates tactics, and why things like flanking maneuvers are basically pointless against competent opponents.

In order to effectively reduce the enemy team's ability to fight, you need to kill their mechs. Most importantly, you need to kill their mechs as fast as possible in order to minimize damage to your own team as well. For all but the most powerful mechs, 1 v 1 TTK is slow in this game. Slow enough that if one mech is losing a solo fight it can quite easily return to its team before dying. This is why focus fire is of utmost importance.

Similarly, if you attack a mech from an angle it is not currently observing, it almost always gets a chance to return fire. Combine this with relatively long cooldowns compared to other shooters, and the only way to effectively damage an enemy mech without simply trading damage with them is to hug cover obsessively. It also means that trying to "flank" a prepared defensive position is pointless because getting the first shot in combat is only a minor advantage, rather than a decisive one.

Don't get me wrong, I think this game is fun with relatively slow TTK, but suggesting even *slower* TTK as a way to improve gameplay is incredibly misguided.

Annnnd back to CoD

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Holy necro

[Weeny Machine]

DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, on 04 February 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:

Holy necro

True. However, it shows that MWO is not evolving when it comes e.g. to game modes. The deathmatches make the blobs of doom so attractive

Edited by Bush Hopper, 04 February 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[DovisKhan]

TTK is not too slow at all, right now it's pretty much impossible to charge a defensive position if it's prepared with any competence:

Basic military tactics 101, attacking force (if of equal technological level) must be 3x the size to have a victory secured with acceptable losses.


1 v 1 ratio attacking force never happens in reality if they are technologically evenly matched.

Same reason why in some planets the defending side wins 100% of the time. (I'm not even exaggerating, the statistic waiting for the map to start, when you know no previous attacker ever won is pretty encouraging...)



It's surprising we don't ballistic weapons with arching trajectory, as in artillery, that's the reason you cannot assault a heavily entrenched position with any chance of victory, that's why artillery exists in reality.



Also WTF with objectives not meaning **** in faction war, it doesn't matter if you take the objective, if you lose on kills, you lose and it's nigh impossible for the assaulting force to win in kills on some maps as seen statistically, simply because the defensive position map wise is prepared too much in favor of the defending force.

Edited by DovisKhan, 05 February 2016 - 12:31 AM.

[LordNothing]

ttk is currently fine on all weapons but boated lasers.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 February 2016 - 12:28 AM.

[the punk who stole your thunder]

Hoax415, on 13 November 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Robots slowly grinding eachother down, running out of ammo and then picking up the limbs of their fallen opponents and beating the other damage enemy to death with it.

This. That was the reason i fell in love with BT many, many years ago. I still remember a TT-match where my last mech clubbed the opponents last one to dust with his own blown of limb - great fun and drama.

[Cabusha]

The blob was a thing even in Closed Beta with Level 1 tech.

[Lykaon]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

This game having a relatively slow TTK is the reason why "the blob" dominates tactics, and why things like flanking maneuvers are basically pointless against competent opponents.

In order to effectively reduce the enemy team's ability to fight, you need to kill their mechs. Most importantly, you need to kill their mechs as fast as possible in order to minimize damage to your own team as well. For all but the most powerful mechs, 1 v 1 TTK is slow in this game. Slow enough that if one mech is losing a solo fight it can quite easily return to its team before dying. This is why focus fire is of utmost importance.

Similarly, if you attack a mech from an angle it is not currently observing, it almost always gets a chance to return fire. Combine this with relatively long cooldowns compared to other shooters, and the only way to effectively damage an enemy mech without simply trading damage with them is to hug cover obsessively. It also means that trying to "flank" a prepared defensive position is pointless because getting the first shot in combat is only a minor advantage, rather than a decisive one.

Don't get me wrong, I think this game is fun with relatively slow TTK, but suggesting even *slower* TTK as a way to improve gameplay is incredibly misguided.

I will have to disagree with you on most of your post.

The "long" TTK is really not long at all. It's no big deal to build a mech with the capacity to blow through a target mech's side torso in 4 seconds flat. An I.S. XL engine = dead mech a standard engine = crippled mech with vastly reduced offensive capabilities.

I routinely run a Marauder with a 45 point alpha enough damage to blow the side off a 65 ton or lighter mech in two salvos or about 4 seconds time. I frequently do flank and get that 45 point strike on the rear armor tearing the side torso off in a split second. 40 point alpha strikes are on the modest side these days.

I think your opinions are heavily clouded by having a skirmish mode fixation. The real problem is most players prefer to play the most basic form of a mechwarrior match. Seriously Skirmish mode is mechwarrior preschool you only need to have basic fundamentals and you're off to the races.

See red robot shoot red robot don't shoot blue robot don't die before red robots do.

Strategy is pretty much out of the question because everyone ALWAYS goes to the same spot EVERY TIME! there is no real need to devise a strategy for handling the red robots beyond see them shoot them don't die first.

The tactics are even diluted to the very basics. Use cover, torso twist shoot the red robot don't die before red robot does.

How many times have you seen a pug team lose an assault because nobody covers the base? they just keep skirmishing because the concept of anything other than the mech preschooler basics is "too hard"

How about conquests? how many times have you seen a team lose on the points because they were playing skirmish and not a conquest?

Is there really any point in adding any other game mode other than Skirmish for the solo queue?

Killing super fast is not the only way to win other matches but skirmish ...mech preschool can only be won with kill the red robots.

Mech blob in Assault and the enemy may sweep some fast units around your blob and take your base.The blob is only as fast as your slowest mech unless you leave them behind to get picked off.

Mech blob in conquest and see how quickly you rack up points one cap at a time because the mech blob isn't fast enough to take multiple caps quickly.

Or you can just keep mech blobing in "shoot the red robots" mode 'cause there...in mechwarrior preschool it's the way to win.

here is the "thing" about complex strategic thinking in mechwarrior. It requires a deeper understanding of what is needed to win a battle.

There are several "resources" in play that are needed to win a match.

On the very surface there are mechs. they get 12 red robots you get 12 blue robots try not to run out of robots first. But this is the simplistic view of the strategy of MWo.

In addition to how many "mans" you have left there are the following resources in play.

Time ( run out of time before meeting a victory condition is a loss it is possible to play the clock for a win)

Heat ( a replenishing resource yet any mech only has only so much ability to shed heat in a given period of time. Make them "waste" heat while you play conservativley and you can easily tip the scales. This is why I actually like hot maps I know how to exploit the enemy's over active trigger fingers)

Ammo ( a non replenishing resource that like heat can effectivley reduce the enemy's ability to fight. wasted ammo is not damage)

Armor ( non replenishing resource,you need not deplete all the armor and kill the enemy mech if you do enough damage that player will likely play far more conservativley and that also reduces the enemy's ability to fight effectivley.)

Components ( I may not be able to kill a Kingcrab in 4 seconds from behind but I can take off a torso and an arm in 4 seconds. careful selection of target AND location on the target is key to reducing the enemy's offensive capabilities.Sometimes you can't manage a kill in the time available so instead take off a weapon arm)

Mobility ( removing the enemy's ability to freely traverse the battlefield is limiting their offensive capabilities. It doesn't matter if they have 6 UAC5 Direwhale if it can't get where it's has to be to be effective.There are several ways to restrict the enemy mobility from destruction of the faster mechs,(good strategy for conquest by the way) to delaying actions (using light harassers to delay enemy mechs) to area denial and suppession fire ( LRM boat covering approach from an open flank or a dakka mech laying down suppression on a potential approach vector)

Killing the enemy is not the be all end all of MWo and the problem isn't an assumed slow time to kill it's a lack of a need to do more than skirmish your way through the entire game.

[Moldur]

Lykaon, on 05 February 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

I will have to disagree with you on most of your post.

The "long" TTK is really not long at all. It's no big deal to build a mech with the capacity to blow through a target mech's side torso in 4 seconds flat. An I.S. XL engine = dead mech a standard engine = crippled mech with vastly reduced offensive capabilities.

I routinely run a Marauder with a 45 point alpha enough damage to blow the side off a 65 ton or lighter mech in two salvos or about 4 seconds time. I frequently do flank and get that 45 point strike on the rear armor tearing the side torso off in a split second. 40 point alpha strikes are on the modest side these days.

I think your opinions are heavily clouded by having a skirmish mode fixation. The real problem is most players prefer to play the most basic form of a mechwarrior match. Seriously Skirmish mode is mechwarrior preschool you only need to have basic fundamentals and you're off to the races.

See red robot shoot red robot don't shoot blue robot don't die before red robots do.

Strategy is pretty much out of the question because everyone ALWAYS goes to the same spot EVERY TIME! there is no real need to devise a strategy for handling the red robots beyond see them shoot them don't die first.

The tactics are even diluted to the very basics. Use cover, torso twist shoot the red robot don't die before red robot does.

How many times have you seen a pug team lose an assault because nobody covers the base? they just keep skirmishing because the concept of anything other than the mech preschooler basics is "too hard"

How about conquests? how many times have you seen a team lose on the points because they were playing skirmish and not a conquest?

Is there really any point in adding any other game mode other than Skirmish for the solo queue?

Killing super fast is not the only way to win other matches but skirmish ...mech preschool can only be won with kill the red robots.

Mech blob in Assault and the enemy may sweep some fast units around your blob and take your base.The blob is only as fast as your slowest mech unless you leave them behind to get picked off.

Mech blob in conquest and see how quickly you rack up points one cap at a time because the mech blob isn't fast enough to take multiple caps quickly.

Or you can just keep mech blobing in "shoot the red robots" mode 'cause there...in mechwarrior preschool it's the way to win.

here is the "thing" about complex strategic thinking in mechwarrior. It requires a deeper understanding of what is needed to win a battle.

There are several "resources" in play that are needed to win a match.

On the very surface there are mechs. they get 12 red robots you get 12 blue robots try not to run out of robots first. But this is the simplistic view of the strategy of MWo.

In addition to how many "mans" you have left there are the following resources in play.

Time ( run out of time before meeting a victory condition is a loss it is possible to play the clock for a win)

Heat ( a replenishing resource yet any mech only has only so much ability to shed heat in a given period of time. Make them "waste" heat while you play conservativley and you can easily tip the scales. This is why I actually like hot maps I know how to exploit the enemy's over active trigger fingers)

Ammo ( a non replenishing resource that like heat can effectivley reduce the enemy's ability to fight. wasted ammo is not damage)

Armor ( non replenishing resource,you need not deplete all the armor and kill the enemy mech if you do enough damage that player will likely play far more conservativley and that also reduces the enemy's ability to fight effectivley.)

Components ( I may not be able to kill a Kingcrab in 4 seconds from behind but I can take off a torso and an arm in 4 seconds. careful selection of target AND location on the target is key to reducing the enemy's offensive capabilities.Sometimes you can't manage a kill in the time available so instead take off a weapon arm)

Mobility ( removing the enemy's ability to freely traverse the battlefield is limiting their offensive capabilities. It doesn't matter if they have 6 UAC5 Direwhale if it can't get where it's has to be to be effective.There are several ways to restrict the enemy mobility from destruction of the faster mechs,(good strategy for conquest by the way) to delaying actions (using light harassers to delay enemy mechs) to area denial and suppession fire ( LRM boat covering approach from an open flank or a dakka mech laying down suppression on a potential approach vector)

Killing the enemy is not the be all end all of MWo and the problem isn't an assumed slow time to kill it's a lack of a need to do more than skirmish your way through the entire game.

DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, on 04 February 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:

Holy necro

[Anjian]

Good to see players recognize one core problem of this game.

The solution though, whether lengthening or shortening TTK would solve the death ball problem, is not very clear though.

I play other games and study their mechanics -- why?

Both War Thunder and World of Warships are games in the opposite sides of the spectrum. War Thunder has extremely short TTK --- it has a damage model that has no HP bar at all. Kills happen if critical components are destroyed, and if components are damaged, performance is compromised. No RNG in shot dispersion, though there is RNG when penetration happens, which is used to simulate spalling effects. This is TTK so short, one shot, or one burst, will kill you. This is not to mention artillery and air strikes that can actually kill you.

WoWs on the other hand, has TTK so long, that after 20 minutes of battle, games have to be decided by points because both sides often have surviving members. Ships have massive hit points --- the Yamato has nearly 100,000. Ships can take more than 50 hits and still survive.

Both in extremes in TTK, and yet both do not exhibit death balling. Flanking and focus firing are present as well as coordinated pushes. But not death balling. So TTK is probably not the cause why their mechanics work. In comparison to WoT, playing tanks in War Thunder is actually more aggressive, because quite so often the attacker, with the initiative, can also get the first shot advantage at you, and one shot is all it takes to kill you.

One thing I noticed is that both games, through their objectives and map design which by any means are large and multi directional, intend to split teams and force small battles all over the map in order to satisfy the victory conditions. How and when these skirmishes are won and lost, can result in the outcome of the battle. There is a tendency in MWO maps to direct entire teams into one or two bottlenecks. I think the ideal for MWO comes in CW maps, after a team goes through the gates and inside the base, or goes out of the base to engage the enemy in the open area. In the two wargames, the successful defense of an entire map across a broad front is essential, and if the front line is breached, the enemy attack has to be contained and a counter attack against the survivors.

I feel that the game's TTK is too short for a single spawn game, but is actually just right for a limited respawn game. I believe the best game experience still comes from a limited respawn game format with objective based winning conditions, similar to CW, but without the factions and huge man premades. and instead, using the PSR matchmaking.

Edited by Anjian, 05 February 2016 - 03:51 AM.

[Mawai]

Just to comment... I disagree with the OP.

Flanking and other techniques work just fine IF you work as a team. A single mech flanking willl poke and distract and run the risk of being hit by return fire by multiple mechs if they choose the wrong situation. A counter attacking lance has enough firepower to focus fire opponents ... they just need the right scouting intel to decide whether to engage the targets or not.

TTK allows mechs to survive mistakes. TTK is one of the differences between MWO and any other shooter where one shot kills and TTK is short.

If you want to see more tactical gameplay then the game needs modes with split objectives which some folks hate. Objectives that require the blob to split up or risk losing.

Also, I would contend that hill humping and poking is a matter of luck if both teams are equally skilled .. whichever team builds up a sufficient advantage in damage or kills will likely win the match. On the other hand, I have seen far more matches won on a well timed push than poking.

Final comment ... static gameplay in MWO is due, in my opinion, more to static maps, static drops and static objectives than to anything else. In ANY FPS, concentration of forces and coordination of fire is usually more effective than everyone spread out doing their own thing. TTK in MWO gives folks a chance to realize this and respond.

P.S. If you are playing the poke game against an unsuspecting opponent and they are given the time to effectively return fire then you are likely taking too long or not choosing the best time or location to shoot.

[Red Shrike]

Someone said he could destroy a heavy's CT with his Stalker in 3.5 seconds give or take. I find that to be faaaar to short of a TTK. I think it should be twice that much, at the very least.

[Karamarka]

The blob is a symptom of small maps (no room to go), close spawns ( all together) and no secondary objectives but kill the enemy.

Even conquest is garbage because it ends in a Skirmish 95% of the time.

[CDLord HHGD]

A high TTK or a low TTK will do NOTHING to solve the herd mentality. We're in multi-ton war machines, the longer the TTK, the better.

You want to break up the herd? Introduce mid-match objectives as well as other games modes (which they are).

[Bud Crue]

Anjian, on 05 February 2016 - 03:50 AM, said:

Good to see players recognize one core problem of this game...

...that on the forums we like to rehash the same complaints over, and over, and over again; for years, maybe even eternity.

Might be one of the best necros ever.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yep, all these massive structure bonuses, or even Clan Xl engines just to name the top of the food chain.

Its just leading to more and more bulldozer tactics, forcing players to pack even more cheese firepower to counter it, and generally dumbing down gameplay IMO.

I think that scrutinizing geometry and fixing hitboxes and hitreg instead of bandaid after bandaid with structure and quirks piled on would go a lot farther in making this game better, but that is just me apparently who thinks that.

There is also the issues with dedicated brawling weapons, Flamer, MG, SRM's, LBX, people should be scared of these weapons, not laughed at.

[LordNothing]

need a way to fix the laser boat issue that isnt going to seriously gimp other weapons in the process. it occured to me that ghost heat is actually not a terrible mechanic. what was terrible is how it was implemented and the logic behind it. it was kind of a one trick pony meant only to detriment boating. thing is it doesnt do that. it just makes boating slightly more difficult, it can easily be defeated by mixing weapons loadouts so that heat stays 1:1. you can still use low ttk loadouts without penalty.

it should not only try to impede boating, but also push a penalty on alpha strikes of any kind. right now it only provides a penalty if the alpha strike is all the same class of weapon, all large lasers for example. you mix larges and mediums you can do a huge alpha with a 1:1 heat penalty (thats to say none at all). enter the mechwarrior 2 mechanic: dh/dt. this is change in heat over time. if you fire every weapon all at once, dh/dt is going to be huge you can keep it low by chain fire or using good fire discipline. why not scale heat based on the values of dh/dt? at some threshold a multiplier starts taking effect. and scaling up fairly linearly from that point. every heat tick the current dt/dh is computed, scaled if over threshold, and applied to the sinks.

this most affects

assorted weapon alphas
boated alphas
low face time weapons with high damage (ac20s, ppcs)
quirked lasers with short durations
large groups of high heat weapons

and least affects

chain fired weapons
group fired low heat weapons
long burn lasers
burst fire autocannons (spread over multiple low heat rounds)
rapid fire low damage weapons (ac2s, flamers)

Edited by LordNothing, 05 February 2016 - 06:58 AM.