181 replies to this topic

[Lefty Lucy]

This game having a relatively slow TTK is the reason why "the blob" dominates tactics, and why things like flanking maneuvers are basically pointless against competent opponents.

In order to effectively reduce the enemy team's ability to fight, you need to kill their mechs. Most importantly, you need to kill their mechs as fast as possible in order to minimize damage to your own team as well. For all but the most powerful mechs, 1 v 1 TTK is slow in this game. Slow enough that if one mech is losing a solo fight it can quite easily return to its team before dying. This is why focus fire is of utmost importance.

Similarly, if you attack a mech from an angle it is not currently observing, it almost always gets a chance to return fire. Combine this with relatively long cooldowns compared to other shooters, and the only way to effectively damage an enemy mech without simply trading damage with them is to hug cover obsessively. It also means that trying to "flank" a prepared defensive position is pointless because getting the first shot in combat is only a minor advantage, rather than a decisive one.

Don't get me wrong, I think this game is fun with relatively slow TTK, but suggesting even *slower* TTK as a way to improve gameplay is incredibly misguided.

[EvilCow]

I agree, increasing the TTK too much would just make the game too forgiving and ultimately dumb.

The whole point of flanking or ambush an opponent is to be able to do significant damage gaining a small time window before the reaction of the target. If the TTK is too high then there is no point in doing anything but a blob focusing fire.

The only thing that should probably be reconsidered are legs, currently it is way to easy to leg a mech, especially in light and medium classes.

Edited by EvilCow, 13 November 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[The Boz]

Disagree.
Also, the blob is not a result of a slow TTK, but a lack of objective-oriented gameplay.

[Warglbargl]

We could just have proper knockdown mechanics, that would be great.

[Flyby215]

I don't think having a really short TTK so that one can sneak around alone acting all rambo-like one-shotting enemies before they one-shot you like WarThunder or CoD is really what Mechwarrior is about.

Flanking and ambushing still works great as is; ambushing of course can catch support/sniper mechs off guard in the face of a brawler/DW, while flanking allow you to easily target softer parts on an enemy (backside or XL for example).

The longer TTK means that a player can take a few hits, and still be able to respond in time to either reposition or to fight back. Your one life in each match actually has some duration to it (if you're not a locust). Dueling can become pretty intense. Longer TTK means that a player isn't instantly screwed if a dual-guass shot pegs them from across the map.

Could not tell you how frustrating WarThunder is to spend several minutes trying to get my B-17 out to the enemy base just to be one-shotted by some bugger with a cannon when my escorts don't one-shot him first.

Edited by Flyby215, 13 November 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

I can't disagree more..... TTK should be increased so people aren't missing pieces of their mechs before they can even react. IMO, alpha striking should not exist in a FPS-esq game. Single or chain-fire at most.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Boz, on 13 November 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Disagree.
Also, the blob is not a result of a slow TTK, but a lack of objective-oriented gameplay.

Its also a lack of communication and knowledge of actual formations to use.

cdlord, on 13 November 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

I can't disagree more..... TTK should be increased so people aren't missing pieces of their mechs before they can even react. IMO, alpha striking should not exist in a FPS-esq game. Single or chain-fire at most.

Alphas can exist in this kind of game, the damage just needs to be less pin point. I can alpha with my AC20, 3 Md Lasers and 4 SRM6s and the damage is not pin point deadly. Same should happen to firing 4-6 of ANY weapons.
...
...
Except Lasers. Laser accurate is a thing after all.

[operatorZ]

I disagree, You have it backwards in my opinion.

slow TTK is essential to the unique game play of the Mechwarrior/Battletech idea. Trying to shorten TTK will just make this game another twitch shooter of which there are plenty. In fact I'm in favor of reducing convergence to increase TTK not reduce it.

Slow TTK is what sets this game apart from all other "shooter" type games. Just because you don't instantly kill another mech if you ambush them or get in the first shot doesn't mean that shot doesn't count or that there isn't an inherent advantage in getting that first shot or ambushing. It all counts and there is the same value for playing smart and flanking/tactics regardless of TTK time.

Increasing TTK actually increases the ability of mechs to play in a non blob focus fire group way...not the other way around. Increased TTK increases risk taking tactics, of which blob focus fire is not, which inherently makes the game less boring.

[Fut]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

It also means that trying to "flank" a prepared defensive position is pointless because getting the first shot in combat is only a minor advantage, rather than a decisive one.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you're missing the point of flanking the enemy. The purpose isn't to pop out on their side and insta-gib the first poor soul you happen upon - it's to distract, confuse and pressure the enemy. As soon as they notice that they're taking fire from a different front, they are forced to either react to you and expose themselves to your main force, or to ignore you and allow you to continue firing upon them.

TTK has to be longer than other shooters, we're not just foot soldiers but pilots of massive war machines. Battletech/Mechwarrior has always been a battle of attrition - it's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Edited by Fut, 13 November 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Innocent]

TTK was too low before clans and IS quirks. Now most of the games i am in are over in less than 5 minutes.

A medium should last more than 3 seconds against an assault. 3 seconds is about all you have right now to either kill the enemy or find cover and it is not enough.

[EvilCow]

I think many missed the point here, it was not about REDUCING TTK but about not increasing it too much,

[xe N on]

The TTK is only slow if you don't use pinppint weapons and don't assist team mates. Using pinpoint weapon to assist teammates that use pinpoint weapons is killing in seconds.

[Hoax415]

TTK and Risk:
Low TTK makes players risk adverse. Because peeking in the wrong place results in death. This results in much more stagnant gameplay because moving out of cover = death.

TTK and Skill:
Low TTK means you need to land less shots on target to get a kill, low enough TTK and a single alpha can basically put a mech out of commission. High TTK = more shots to disable/kill = are many more opportunities for you to miss or for your opponent to make you miss through torso twisting or other maneuvering.

Low TTK means one player can kill 8 people per match because he only needs to land his shot before the other guys land theirs. This is the epitome of skill when one person can single handedly control and win the entire game.

TTK and Battletech:
Low TTK plays like a million "modern" shooters with robot skins. High TTK lends itself to the 80's sensibilities of Battletech. Robots slowly grinding eachother down, running out of ammo and then picking up the limbs of their fallen opponents and beating the other damage enemy to death with it.

I used to know more of the basic arguments but its been quite some time since I thought about this.

[EvilCow]

xe N on, on 13 November 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

The TTK is only slow if you don't use pinppint weapons and don't assist team mates. Using pinpoint weapon to assist teammates that use pinpoint weapons is killing in seconds.

Everybody knows that the problem is not in the amount of armor but allowing massive pinpoint damage. The devs seems to be surprisingly unconcerned about the real root cause, this is why there is this talk about increasing TTK globally.

Wrong approach.

[Lefty Lucy]

Fut, on 13 November 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you're missing the point of flanking the enemy. The purpose isn't to pop out on their side and insta-gib the first poor soul you happen upon - it's to distract, confuse and pressure the enemy. As soon as they notice that they're taking fire from a different front, they are forced to either react to you and expose themselves to your main force, or to ignore you and allow you to continue firing upon them.

TTK has to be longer than other shooters, we're not just foot soldiers but pilots of massive war machines. Battletech/Mechwarrior has always been a battle of attrition - it's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Competent opponents don't get confused though. In high-level organized play, many skirmish matches are basically a stale mate because one side gets into a good defensive position, and the other side realizes that no matter what they do, no matter what kind of tricky maneuvers they want to try, the enemy is going to respond competently.

[Killstorm999999]

Fut, on 13 November 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you're missing the point of flanking the enemy. The purpose isn't to pop out on their side and insta-gib the first poor soul you happen upon - it's to distract, confuse and pressure the enemy. As soon as they notice that they're taking fire from a different front, they are forced to either react to you and expose themselves to your main force, or to ignore you and allow you to continue firing upon them.

TTK has to be longer than other shooters, we're not just foot soldiers but pilots of massive war machines. Battletech/Mechwarrior has always been a battle of attrition - it's part of what makes the game so much fun.

Yes, this is the purpose of flanking. In fact I would say flanking is even more decisive in MWO then in other shooters, because if you are being flanked in MWO it's impossible to torso twist safely as you are either exposing your CT or rear to the flankers (and if you move to engage the flankers, you end up exposing yourself to the main force).

Compare this too a twitch shooter like CoD or Unreal Tournament. Because of the repsawn mechanic, and individual flank manouvre that distracts and kills a few enemies will not decide the match. In MWO, however, a single flanking manouvre can very easily result in the enemy team being crushed.

[AlphaToaster]

When TTK is too slow, people are afraid to push because they don't feel powerful. They can't push alone or flank alone because they can't kill anyone on their own before getting crippled themselves. When you end up with teammates that will not push then it's much easier for the team to get rolled.

When TTK is too fast, people are afraid to push because they risk getting 1-shotted. But you will see more people actively trying to sway the game because the reward is worth the risk. It is worth it to try to flank in your AC20 medium because if you get the drop on an assault you have a chance to kill him. It's not that you're going to kill him every time, but you at least have that chance to. Afterall, you're exposed on the flank, risking your mech for that chance to make something happen.

TL:DR

We're looking for the happy medium. Too much of either is bad, by definition of being too much. Personally I think TTK should err towards faster rather than slower because it opens up more chances for the individual pilots to sway the battle.

[Felio]

TTK is not slow. The fast TTK is what makes maneuvers pointless. Even a simple hammer and anvil won't work because your anvil will be dead before the hammer arrives. That's why we murderball.

[Killstorm999999]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Competent opponents don't get confused though. In high-level organized play, many skirmish matches are basically a stale mate because one side gets into a good defensive position, and the other side realizes that no matter what they do, no matter what kind of tricky maneuvers they want to try, the enemy is going to respond competently.

Thats an issue with the number of maps, and player knowledge of the terrain. A good defensive position is considered 'good' if you cannot be easily flanked. So since there is no flanking going on, then decreasing TTK wouldn't assist in stopping those stalemates. The way to stop those stalemates would be to introduce those high skilled players to new maps where they do not know the terrain and have to figure out the best defensive position off the cuff.

[Prezimonto]

Lefty Lucy, on 13 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I think this game is fun with relatively slow TTK, but suggesting even *slower* TTK as a way to improve gameplay is incredibly misguided.

If you haven't (and I haven't had time in quite a while) I'd encourage you to play some Stock Mech matches. The TTK is much higher, because weapon loadouts are smaller and heat management is much harder. Despite these issues, I find the TTK in stock mech matches to drive a significantly more tense, and in the long run more fun experience. Granted, part of that experience is the punishing heat scale, where you're encouraged to hit fast, hard, and fade to cool off.

So I might suggest that TTK isn't the issue directly, but rather rampant upgrades (particularly DHS and ENDO) which have very little to no downside within the game play, and lead to power creep in a multiplicity of ways.

Edited by Prezimonto, 13 November 2014 - 01:05 PM.