71 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Jacob Side, on 14 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

"knock that damn Stormcrow flat on its' face. When he tries to get up just ram him again!"
THIS GARBAGE IS NOT FUN! We had it. Hence the References to Dragon bowling. Dragons could knock down anything and couldn't be knocked down themselves. It would cause massive rage quitting and huge barrages of every foul word you can think of to come flying on to comms.
Again knockdowns are not fun.
I'm all for upping the damage from collisions, but knockdowns can go the way of the dodo.

Of an infinite number of ways to implement knockdown and collisions, we saw... one. And they couldn't even get it to work.

There are other ways of doing it. It's the same with people saying "Repair and Rearm didn't work. It's a bad feature." In my opinion, we just saw a single way of implementing that particular feature. There's an infinite number of ways to do it.

For once, it's really nice to know that even though most people are pessimistic, I'm both optimistic and rather certain PGI will actually go through with it anyway. Usually, I'm on the side of people who are pessimistic and are just counting the days until PGI introduces an unwanted feature.

FupDup, on 14 November 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

In general, the amount of "optimism" here is higher across the board after IGP's removal from the picture.

You're saying the optimism is higher than it used to be? Or that you see more positive posts than negative posts? If it's the latter, I dare say your glasses are the rose-tinted ones.

[Kiryuin Ragyo]

Jacob Side, on 14 November 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

"knock that damn Stormcrow flat on its' face. When he tries to get up just ram him again!"

THIS GARBAGE IS NOT FUN! We had it. Hence the References to Dragon bowling. Dragons could knock down anything and couldn't be knocked down themselves. It would cause massive rage quitting and huge barrages of every foul word you can think of to come flying on to comms.

Again knockdowns are not fun.

I'm all for upping the damage from collisions, but knockdowns can go the way of the dodo.

Knockdowns... pff. Dude you forget the Victor and Lander. I don't need to explain what's happens if Lander or Victor land on light mech from sky high. 80 or 90 tons in free fall... one word... YAY!

[The Wakelord]

Summary of this thread: I want my assaults to be even more powerful and lights to be even weaker still

GJ guys

[Sandpit]

Collisions

Tonnage+Speed/total hit locations=damage
100tons+50kph/5= 30 damage
Damage is spread in increments to each hit location
In above example target mech would take 5 damage to each hit location

DFA = drop speed+tonnage/top hit locations (head, rt, lt, ct as above)
DFA = 15/kph+45= 60 spread evenly to 4 hit locations = 15 damage to each: head, ct, lt, rt
Above example would have target take 15 damage to each torso and head locations (unless one is already gone)

Knockdown = rng based on mech's tonnage and piloting level (based on the 3 levels of mastering a mech)

Smaller mechs wouldn't be able to just ram constantly without taking their own damage as well. In case of head on collisions each mech takes the appropriate damage from the other attacker

35 ton jenner running 100/kph rams 100 ton atlas moving 50/kph head on
Jenner takes 30 damage
Atlas takes 27 damage

Knockdowns are decided based on above knockdown formula

Now all of those numbers are off the top of my head in under 5 minutes so obviously they'd need testing and adjusting but something along those lines would make collisions viable and far from op.

[Vassago Rain]

There's way more out there.

[terrycloth]

Should be tonnage * speed^2. So a 100 kph shadowhawk would do 550000 damage if it ran into someone. 0.0001 modifier?

Damage should be mitigated by the elasticity of the collision -- unless you're up against a wall or something, you could get knocked back instead at some speed, reducing the damage. Maybe a key you could hold down to set yourself for the collision, that would launch you 'safely' away and/or use your mech's shock absorbers to mitigate the damage as if it was falling damage? For simplicity it could just be the 'throttle zero' key (or 'don't hold down forwards or backwards' if you were using the simple throttle controls).

So if everyone was doing everything right, you'd take EM*CV*CV (energy imparted to you by the enemy) - YM*KV*KV (converted to knockback) - YM*35*35 (shock absorbers). (CV = closing velocity, KV = knockback velocity)

... this could easily end up being completely ridiculous.

[Sandpit]

terrycloth, on 14 November 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

Should be tonnage * speed^2. So a 100 kph shadowhawk would do 550000 damage if it ran into someone. 0.0001 modifier?

Damage should be mitigated by the elasticity of the collision -- unless you're up against a wall or something, you could get knocked back instead at some speed, reducing the damage. Maybe a key you could hold down to set yourself for the collision, that would launch you 'safely' away and/or use your mech's shock absorbers to mitigate the damage as if it was falling damage? For simplicity it could just be the 'throttle zero' key (or 'don't hold down forwards or backwards' if you were using the simple throttle controls).

So if everyone was doing everything right, you'd take EM*CV*CV (energy imparted to you by the enemy) - YM*KV*KV (converted to knockback) - YM*35*35 (shock absorbers). (CV = closing velocity, KV = knockback velocity)

... this could easily end up being completely ridiculous.

why are you trying to make this into such an extreme?

I just showed a formula that would mitigate, spread, and make viable damage to any and all mechs in the game without being anywhere near "op" status.

It doesn't have to be hard. A simple formula and spreading damage mitigates a lot. Speed and tonnage are really the only two things that need to be taken into consideration in regards to damage. It doesn't have to be complicated. It's basically a modified TT formula without taking into account hexes moved.

[Kiiyor]

superteds, on 14 November 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

stunlocks are dumb, and knockdowns used to be seriously dumb (dragon-bowling). hopefully whatever they implement is less dumb.

Oh god yes, Dragon bowling was one of the most infuriating things in any video game - and i've finished ghouls and ghosts. A Dragon could keep a single target down for an entire match, if they wanted.

Remember Jenner bowling? Two Jenners in bowling mode could start a push by removing two enemy Assaults before a shot had been fired.

With PPFLD being the way it is nowadays, if a light gets knocked down, that's it. He ded.

Care will need to be taken with this. I'm all for it being a module/special ability for heavies and assaults only like was proposed by the Devs way back when.

Edit:

I think it should be an almighty CLANG, moderate damage, and a course deviation and temporary control lockout instead of a full knockdown.

Edited by Kiiyor, 14 November 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 14 November 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

You're saying the optimism is higher than it used to be? Or that you see more positive posts than negative posts? If it's the latter, I dare say your glasses are the rose-tinted ones.

It's the former for the most part, although there actually were a few rare days where the latter applied.

[oldradagast]

superteds, on 14 November 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

stunlocks are dumb, and knockdowns used to be seriously dumb (dragon-bowling). hopefully whatever they implement is less dumb.

Stunlocks are game killers, and what they had was idiotic - I saw the videos, and it looked miserable to experience and stupid as all heck.

If they don't come up with something far, FAR better, they can expect players to abandon the game in droves.

Nobody comes to a mech game to watch a bunch of trolls stun-lock them for "fun." And when playing "rock'em sock'em" robots with many ton mechs covered with weapons becomes the primary tactic, a game is insane and finished. There are videos all over the internet that show what a horrible idea this is, and barring a massive scale-down in the effectiveness of it, it will suck all the fun right out of this game as "bowling" becomes the main combat tactic.

And that's in a GOOD match. In the bad ones, your idiot team mates will step on you, allowing you to start a match flat on your back and with your armor fading away... Think of all those matches where you start at 99% because some blunderbuss crashed into you at match start? Now, let's add knock-downs to really punish the player for dropping in a match with potatoes for team-mates...

Edited by oldradagast, 14 November 2014 - 07:53 PM.

[oldradagast]

The Wakelord, on 14 November 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Summary of this thread: I want my assaults to be even more powerful and lights to be even weaker still

GJ guys

Basically, yes.

Knockdowns add nothing but: stunlocks, insane tactics that make the game look laughable, more rewards for playing heavier mechs - because apparently the game isn't supposed to have anything under 55 tons be viable - and more ways to punish players for having lousy team-mates since now said team-mates can step on you and knock you down when they blunder around vs. just knocking 1% off your armor.

Great job, guys... is any of the above what we really want? Ugh!

[BlakeAteIt]

knockdowns + artillery = lol

They used to be hilarious, though. And they gave Dragons a reason to be around, pre-quirk. I wonder if the Stalker would be knockdown master now.

Edited by BlakeAteIt, 14 November 2014 - 08:25 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

BlakeAteIt, on 14 November 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

And they gave Dragons a reason to be around, pre-quirk.

Yeah due to a bug that gave them 100 tons of mass

[FupDup]

BlakeAteIt, on 14 November 2014 - 08:24 PM, said:

knockdowns + artillery = lol

They used to be hilarious, though. And they gave Dragons a reason to be around, pre-quirk. I wonder if the Stalker would be knockdown master now.

The current knockdown master is probably the Timberwolf. 75 ton mass, very large engine (89.1 kph), JJ access, very durable, and with enough firepower to cripple an enemy even before it can close the distance.

Regarding Dragons...there are much larger threats in terms of knockdowns now (or at least, when they're re-added). Namely, that Timberwolf mentioned above. The Summoner, upcoming Grasshopper, Victor, and maybe Quickdraw are the other main candidates that I can think of.

[BlakeAteIt]

tag + narc + knockdown + lrms + artillery = Fun (dwarf fortress definition)

[F4T 4L]

Bilbo, on 14 November 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

If it keeps the light pilots off my Atlases' toes, I'll concede the damage. It will be much more burdensome for them.

Sure, because what we really need right now is new ways to discourage folk from the light queue.

[Mercules]

Sandpit, on 14 November 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

Collisions

Tonnage+Speed/total hit locations=damage
100tons+50kph/5= 30 damage
Damage is spread in increments to each hit location
In above example target mech would take 5 damage to each hit location

DFA = drop speed+tonnage/top hit locations (head, rt, lt, ct as above)
DFA = 15/kph+45= 60 spread evenly to 4 hit locations = 15 damage to each: head, ct, lt, rt
Above example would have target take 15 damage to each torso and head locations (unless one is already gone)

Knockdown = rng based on mech's tonnage and piloting level (based on the 3 levels of mastering a mech)

Smaller mechs wouldn't be able to just ram constantly without taking their own damage as well. In case of head on collisions each mech takes the appropriate damage from the other attacker

35 ton jenner running 100/kph rams 100 ton atlas moving 50/kph head on
Jenner takes 30 damage
Atlas takes 27 damage

Knockdowns are decided based on above knockdown formula

Now all of those numbers are off the top of my head in under 5 minutes so obviously they'd need testing and adjusting but something along those lines would make collisions viable and far from op.

In TT the charging mech typically takes less damage, which makes sense as they are most likely shoving/pushing/braced to collide. TT formula uses.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 November 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Yeah due to a bug that gave them 100 tons of mass

Actually it was more of a feature that was a bit bugged. They were supposed to be a bit more sturdy on their feet(one of the first 'quirks' technically) and so for knockdown were considered higher tonnage, but yeah a full speed moving Dragon could knock down an Atlas easily.

I once took a Catapult down without falling myself in a Jenner. I jumped at the right moment and "Mario'd" off his cockpit... over he went and I landed beyond him.

[Telmasa]

For now, all I'd like to see is when my Atlas manages to facehug a mech, it doesn't just warp through me, turn around, and core my backside while I try to figure out what just happened.


Collisions between mechs should be solid impacts, that does damage proportional to the speed of each mech - similar to World of Tanks, for instance.

But definitely nothing resulting in 'knockdowns' and all that nonsense. (rip Paul's k2)

[luxebo]

Just no Dragon Bowling, no Lights that can knockdown Atlases and Dire Whales by bumping them, no bull like that. Only weapon collisions after severe crap tons of alphas, and knockdowns that are realistic not bunch of ******* screwing the team by accidently bumping walls and whatnot.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

luxebo, on 15 November 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:

Just no Dragon Bowling, no Lights that can knockdown Atlases and Dire Whales by bumping them, no bull like that. Only weapon collisions after severe crap tons of alphas, and knockdowns that are realistic not bunch of ******* screwing the team by accidently bumping walls and whatnot.

It will be great fot atlases and dire whales. Gone will be the says when l;ights hug our groins becsause they will trip and fall