182 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Ultimatum X, on 15 November 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

They should probably just weigh kills and assists equally, then it doesn't matter who does what - just that everyone contributes.

The problem is that the person who just did just 1 damage, the one that did 1 damage to kill, and the one that soloed a kill, will all be treated the same.

I think a better criteria, albeit a much harder one, is to just reward someone who did most damage and the kill. That should hopefully force people to stick to target.

[Jabilo]

I am not opted in, but I am aware of the tournament and actually heard people in team chat this evening saying gaming the system was common during this event.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I don't mind the tournament. Overall, it is done in such a way as not to interfere with my play too much, so why not opt in, pad the wallet, grab a Hula Girl, have some laughs.

But watching the players go out of their way to touch everything and NOT get kills, to maximize their scores, so they can show of their Epeen? Seriously laughable.

Fact is, you get 12 kills, 1500 damage (240), you end up with A LOWER SCORE, than the guy who gets 0 kills, 11 Assists and 750 damage, in a loss (270). Mind you, those 11 assists on a win, to qualify for the Leaderboards, is a score of 290.

This makes sense, how? Half my highest scores came from absolute crap matches, where the ones I dominated (5-6 kills, 600+ damage in a HBK-4G..... can't help the damage, critter is too efficient at killing, lol) are in the lower half of my qualifying scores.

This might be the first Tournament where the Leaderboards are dominated by people who did less to actually help the team win the game. On the upside, FF is down, overall, and a lot less killstealing, lol.

*SMH*

GG, PGI, Close. Lol.

Meh, I just grab the kill and move on, not worrying about this stuff. The leaderboard rewards are utter dung anyway. Still managed to stay at #12 in Marik.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 November 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[SweetJackal]

I agree with you Bishop, the formula is still off. It should treat kills and assists equally, remove rewarding damage while continuing to punish team damage and use C-Bill income to make up the point difference. Something like:

(Kills+Assists)*10-(Team Damage/15)+(CBill Income/1000)

Changing the point system for tournaments to this removes punishing kills over assists or assists over kills, meaning you avoid promoting destructive kill stealing behavior or farming behavior where players try to avoid taking the killing blow. Removing reward points for damage means that you don't punish more efficient builds or players that aren't spreading their damage to pad their stats. Keeping team damage as a negative punishes players that fail to consider the positioning of the team. Using C-Bill sub-totals to determine points means that team orientated actions, such as protecting teammates, capturing points, spotting/tag/narc, and Savior Kills end up promoted by the tournament.

Though such a system will still require tweaking to the CBill Income and Reward to fix it's current problems. Most glaringly removing the Solo Kill bonus and rolling that reward into the Most Damage Kill reward (the reward given to doing the most damage to the mech) and removing the Brawling reward from the On Kill section of rewards and instead place it within the Flanking/Hit'n'Run dynamic (make the Brawling reward trigger when you deal damage within a certain range, set conditions to set it to be exclusive from Flanking and Hit'n'Run.)

New rewards would need to be given for Protecting Light and Protecting Medium (in addition to Protected Light/Medium respectively, but given to the big brother for watching out for the little one) as well as for Tanking (taking damage within a certain range when you have teammates nearby. Often to be triggered along with Brawling and rewards spreading damage and using your larger body to tank damage for the team.)

There is also talk about rewards for protecting your team (though not yourself) from LRM fire, so that will hopefully promote more teamplay in dealing with that (though LRMs are something that is best dealt with by personal skill, awareness and choices.)

How did I derail into changing CBill rewards to rewarding players that play their roles? Because doing so sets the best benchmark for tournament scores and leaderboards.

[Aresye]

Mystere, on 15 November 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

The problem is that the person who just did just 1 damage, the one that did 1 damage to kill, and the one that soloed a kill, will all be treated the same.

Had a better formula written up on another topic. Basically it was like this:

Score = (Kills x 10) + (Assists x 10) + (Solo Kills x 5) + (Kills Most Damage Dealt x 5) + ([Damage - Team Damage] / 15) + (Wins x 10)

So basically, kill stealing and assist swiping will still happen, but for players to get the best scores they can, they need to maximize damage on target. Wins also count less so when you get a team that just can't pull it together, your effort isn't lost.

[Ultimax]

Mystere, on 15 November 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

The problem is that the person who just did just 1 damage, the one that did 1 damage to kill, and the one that soloed a kill, will all be treated the same.

That's not a problem. You simply set a damage minimum to count as an actual assist.

Mystere, on 15 November 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I think a better criteria, albeit a much harder one, is to just reward someone who did most damage and the kill. That should hopefully force people to stick to target.

That puts us back to people taking suicidal actions and not being team players.


Want to teach people how to play the game?

You give bonus points to everyone based on the number of team mates who are able to contribute to any single kill.

i.e. reward actual focus fire, one of the simplest and most fundamental aspects of good team play.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MadPanda, on 15 November 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

PGI made a challenge and set the rules. Nothing 'sad' about the players who play by the rules. Blame the game not the player.

I kind of have to agree with this statement. I mean when you set up the scoring rules, you have to expect that people are going to follow those rules in order to get the best scores. I mean if you say shooting a ball into a basket earns you points, then people are going to try to shoot the ball in the basket, that is how you win after all.

So yeah most people are shooting for assists because you get the biggest bang for the buck. Hell I chose a mech that has proven itself excellent at getting assists while struggling to get kills specifically because of the tourney. Don't get me wrong, I am playing my hardest, doing as much damage as I can and taking the kills when they present themselves, but the reality is instead of concentrating my fire, I am spraying and trying to tag every mech I see in order to increase my assists. The reason I am doing this...because the rules say this is the best way to insure I get top scores.

Now honestly I have to say there is something very wrong with these rules. I mean I should never fire at an enemy and say to myself, "Oh crap, I killed him...damn bad luck, my score just dropped 10 points." I mean the system is seriously borked when you feel like your being punished for getting a kill on the enemy.

[Fuggles]

its really odd, coming around a corner in my locust 3m firing 5 small pulse lasers directly into the center torso of an enemy mech, killing the already wounded mechwarrior with a single alphastrike. Im finding myself saying, OH NOOOO I KILLED HIM! WHAT HAVE I DONE? WHAT HAVE I DONNNNNEEEEEE!!!!



i just meant to lock him so that lurmnoob could get my kill for me, nooooooo!

Edited by Fuggles, 15 November 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Aresye, on 15 November 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

Had a better formula written up on another topic. Basically it was like this:

Score = (Kills x 10) + (Assists x 10) + (Solo Kills x 5) + (Kills Most Damage Dealt x 5) + ([Damage - Team Damage] / 15) + (Wins x 10)

So basically, kill stealing and assist swiping will still happen, but for players to get the best scores they can, they need to maximize damage on target. Wins also count less so when you get a team that just can't pull it together, your effort isn't lost.

Yeah this makes more sense. I vote PGI should use it next tourney.

[Kilo 40]

Realization: assists earn more than kills

Observation: some people get lots of assists

Wild ass assumption: people with lots of assists must be deliberately avoiding getting kills.


Regardless, bravo OP. At least you managed to turn the usual QQ about "kill stealing" during tournaments on its head.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kilo 40, on 15 November 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

Realization: assists earn more than kills

Observation: some people get lots of assists

Wild ass assumption: people with lots of assists must be deliberately avoiding getting kills.


Regardless, bravo OP. At least you managed to turn the usual QQ about "kill stealing" during tournaments on its head.

Or.... actual in game chatter and observation? OMG!!!! What a concept.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 15 November 2014 - 04:06 PM, said:

In my opinion, PGI keeps making the same mistake over and over again for these weekly challenges. "Let's see if we can get people to play continuously for 2 days straight. That will surely not lead to griefing and people gaming the system, right? Right?" When the challenge is a grind, people will do whatever they can to reduce the grind. For example, you get 100K per valid match, up to 10 million C-bills. That's 100 valid matches played in 2 days. That number is insane. If you're really desperate for the cash, the weekend will just become a really bitter experience, as you do whatever you can to get those valid matches. In the end, people are just willing to do anything to finish the weekend with enough cash to buy their third Timber Wolf or whatever else. I've said it so many times that I'm sick of hearing myself talk about it. The solution is simple. Create a shorter window of opportunity. Reduce the grind. While this tournament is getting a lot of people excited, the frenzy to get a 130 point score is also making the gameplay unbearable for others. It's not really an ideal situation.

Like the Halloween tourney was fun.

The only one that was fun

[Kilo 40]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 November 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

Or.... actual in game chatter and observation? OMG!!!! What a concept.

Of course sweetie. "Actual in game chatter and observation" indeed.

[IllCaesar]

I have gamed the system a teeny bit. A handful of matches I might not have qualified if I had gone for the kill. That being said, I still try to cripple the mech best I can so others can get the kill easily. For example, today, rather than focus on a Raven that I just legged I let my team tear into it. When I tore both side torsos off a Stalker leaving it weaponless, I went elsewhere leaving teammates to mop it up. When I legged a Summoner and ripped off a side torso, leaving it with one measly Medium Laser, I moved on to more dangerous enemies. Its one part gaming the system and one part prioritizing targets. So I've been a participant, but I'm not exactly going the "**** you, got mine" route either.

Anyways, I have three proposals to deal with this.

Proposal one and two are to make damage 10 damage to 1 point and assists and kill worth the same. I have a match where I got one kill, eight assists and 739 damage in a glorious victory that my team fought hard to win, garnering me a qualifying score of 219. Yet, in one of my worst matches of the weekend, I got no kills, ten assists, and 300 damage - qualifying score of 220. That is just plain wrong. In every aspect possible, I did better in the former match, yet I got a score eclipsed by a match where I made a lot of poor decisions in which the team only won because it was one of those elo stomps that happen every so often.

Proposal three if the prior two don't fix the problem of gaming the system, is to give everybody some MC for playing in 'x' amount of matches. I like the Hula Girl, but many are chasing the MC prize. If somebody earns MC just for participation, I think that people would be less likely to try to game the system for MC if they receive some MC regardless. Could be totally wrong, though, I think that the first two proposals are better.

Edit: My last match, I dominated in it. Two kills, five assists, 530 damage. This was the matchwith the Stalker and Summoner I mentioned. If I had gone in for the kill with both of them, that would've reduced it to 135, and I would've been so busy fighting them that I wouldn't have gotten an assist via a member of the opposing team that I hadn't tagged. I wouldn't have qualifed with four kills, three assists and 530 damage. Thats messed up.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 15 November 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[Abivard]

If the points for kills and assists were equal, and a win is needed for the points to count, it would really solve it all.

But that would be a simple, well balanced idea that would encourage team play and focus fire so no way will that happen.

No way to really game the system if it worked like that, in fact if you dropped the points for doing damage but kept the subtraction of points for doing friendly damage it would greatly ENHANCE the player expierence and lead to even better team play and good sportsmanship.

Instead PGI seems to want to reward exploiters. poor sportsmanship, bad team players and those who will place gaming the system over all else.

Why they do what they do I have no idea, but the fact remains that what they get is what they asked for.

[IllCaesar]

Abivard, on 15 November 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

If the points for kills and assists were equal, and a win is needed for the points to count, it would really solve it all.

But that would be a simple, well balanced idea that would encourage team play and focus fire so no way will that happen.

What if you break your back carrying the team and don't qualify in a match that you otherwise would have? Because I've qualified in most of my losses. You don't qualify in a loss by playing poorly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kilo 40, on 15 November 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

Of course sweetie. "Actual in game chatter and observation" indeed.

Ah, hit too close to home, cupcake? Dunno when you became part of the butthurt masses, but live in your fantasy world all you like.

but just for you:
https://twitter.com/...800409081462784

Oops-

[Abivard]

130 score is easy to get, only wins count so it is really 110 points you need to score;

That means 1 kill, 5 assists and 150 damage.

If you can not do that or an equivalent than you are doing something really,really wrong.

The problem is the leaderboards. Which means many players want to get high scores, to get high scores you have to do what the score formula tells you to do to get it.

For this tournament it is telling you DO NOT GET ANY KILLS!
A Kill is now a penalty to your score.
refraining from killing a mech is BAD team play and poor sportsmanship.

[Quxudica]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 November 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Playing, and gaming, not really the same, but yes, I know most gamers can't tell the difference. Sorry dude, but watching people avoid kills, is indeed sad and laughable.

You can insult them however much you want, doesn't change the fact it's smart play. The goal of the game, as it currently exists, is simply to grind cbills for whatever you want to buy. If tagging everything and avoiding kills gets you more cbills than that's the clever thing to do.

Fact is there is no way to devise a scoring system that isn't either exploitable or alienating. Either it factors in assists heavily, thus allowing all roles a shot at the score, or it factors in damage and or kills heavily, in which case roles like scout are out of luck.

Funny thing is if they kept the score requirement lower, not halloween low but still lower than 130, it probably wouldn't be so bad since an average pilot would hit the threshold with a solid game - no need to worry about gaming the system.

side note, Leader Boards are almost always pointless in games as they will always be occupied by those that game the game, exploit or outright cheat. Outside of a regulated lan tourney environment they are just meaningless and cause problems.

Edited by Quxudica, 15 November 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Bishop Steiner, on 15 November 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Ah, hit too close to home, cupcake? Dunno when you became part of the butthurt masses, but live in your fantasy world all you like.

but just for you:
https://twitter.com/...800409081462784

Oops-

I'm butthurt? About what? How is it butthurt to say your conclusion that everyone is avoidind getting kills was pulled out of your ass?

Also I'm not sure what that twitter post is for. Did I say it wasn't a mistake or something?