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Not Sure What Is Sadder, The Actual Scoring System (Tournament) Or The Way Players Are Gaming The System, Lol.


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#61 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:11 PM

View PostQuxudica, on 15 November 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:


You can insult them however much you want, doesn't change the fact it's smart play. The goal of the game, as it currently exists, is simply to grind cbills for whatever you want to buy. If tagging everything and avoiding kills gets you more cbills than that's the clever thing to do.

Fact is there is no way to devise a scoring system that isn't either exploitable or alienating. Either it factors in assists heavily, thus allowing all roles a shot at the score, or it factors in damage and or kills heavily, in which case roles like scout are out of luck.

Funny thing is if they kept the score requirement lower, not halloween low but still lower than 130, it probably wouldn't be so bad since an average pilot would hit the threshold with a solid game - no need to worry about gaming the system.

side note, Leader Boards are almost always pointless in games as they will always be occupied by those that game the game, exploit or outright cheat. Outside of a regulated lan tourney environment they are just meaningless and cause problems.

And the insult is where?

Wow, if that is an insult to you, you probably should stay away from the internet.

#62 IllCaesar

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:11 PM

View PostKilo 40, on 15 November 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

I'm butthurt? About what? How is it butthurt to say your conclusion that everyone is avoidind getting kills was pulled out of your ass?

Also I'm not sure what that twitter post is for. Did I say it wasn't a mistake or something?


Yeah, Russ thinks that assists shouldn't only be worth 10 points so that there's even more incentive to be a LRMboat with fifteen tons of ammo firing nonstop hiding way back. Thats why, people are just so mad that its so easy to qualify for free stuff. You've cracked the code, have a cookie.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 15 November 2014 - 07:12 PM.


#63 Mechwarrior Buddah

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:12 PM

View PostMarsAtlas, on 15 November 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:


What if you break your back carrying the team and don't qualify in a match that you otherwise would have? Because I've qualified in most of my losses. You don't qualify in a loss by playing poorly.

Posted Image

Ya like that

Usae LRM atlases

#64 Abivard

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:13 PM

View PostMarsAtlas, on 15 November 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:


What if you break your back carrying the team and don't qualify in a match that you otherwise would have? Because I've qualified in most of my losses. You don't qualify in a loss by playing poorly.


AHH there is the salt in the wound! If your team doesn't win then you get no score.

But if you could score points in a loss would it really be so bad?
No it would not. it doesn't matter if you tag every enemy mech, if none of them die you you are not going get any points for assists.

If kills equaled assists, the vast majority of the problems would go away:
More people would play more games which makes PGI happy.
Players would be encouraged to play as team players.
100 games is a lot of games, win or lose.

People are always going go for the win because that is how you make the most points. If you can score well enough on a losing team to make the cut you deserve a reward!

#65 Alex Warden

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:46 PM

the best way would still be to handle kills the same as assists... but for some reason PGI doesn´t like that...

i get that sometimes it´s a nice thought: raise the score/ bonus for assists to promote teamwork... but in my opinion it´s better to treat both equally... people will always reach for the most they can get...

so if there is no difference, they just can play the game without worrying if they should get the kill or not...
(well... KDR b****ing aside ^^... on that topic: Transformers has a nice stat: Kill+assist/ death ratio...just saying :) )

#66 SweetJackal

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:54 PM

View PostQuxudica, on 15 November 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:


You can insult them however much you want, doesn't change the fact it's smart play. The goal of the game, as it currently exists, is simply to grind cbills for whatever you want to buy. If tagging everything and avoiding kills gets you more cbills than that's the clever thing to do.

Fact is there is no way to devise a scoring system that isn't either exploitable or alienating. Either it factors in assists heavily, thus allowing all roles a shot at the score, or it factors in damage and or kills heavily, in which case roles like scout are out of luck.

Funny thing is if they kept the score requirement lower, not halloween low but still lower than 130, it probably wouldn't be so bad since an average pilot would hit the threshold with a solid game - no need to worry about gaming the system.

side note, Leader Boards are almost always pointless in games as they will always be occupied by those that game the game, exploit or outright cheat. Outside of a regulated lan tourney environment they are just meaningless and cause problems.

This is objectively wrong. Though it is difficult to make a scoring system that isn't exploitable or alienating it is more than feasible. You do so by using rewards to promote intended or positive behavior from the perspective of design and making rewards more mutually exclusive. If the rewards system is pushing players into behaviors that benefit the team as a whole for the purpose of grinding CBills and XP then it is successfully manipulating or guiding players into promoted behaviors.

Using rewards that are exclusive to one another allows you to reward a large number of roles and actions equally without creating an exploitable situation where someone games the system by creating a mech designed to hit all of those equally paying but different roles rewards. This allows you to create high paying rewards that aren't achieved at the same time as blasting mechs, killing pilots and dealing damage. This means that the Assault that tanks the front and smashes the enemy line can be rewarded the same as the Light that scouts, spots, and skirmishes and they can be rewarded the same as the Heavy that provides escort and support to others. Mutually exclusive rewards means that the players that help the team and fulfill their own self defined roles determined by how they build their mech get paid well for doing well in that role without skewing earnings or allowing for "double dipping" on actions.

If you use a rewards system designed to prevent double dipping into roles then you limit the means of exploitation to that of collusion with the enemy team. Which should already be against the CoC, ToS or EULA and is something that can be setup to be more easily monitored and tracked. Using a rewards system in this fashion doesn't alienate players with how they play so long as they are achieving objectives and assisting the team, players that do well are rewarded well and players that do less are rewarded less (though still reasonably.) Just this small distinction provides a reason for players to seek to improve, if only to be more efficient at "gaming the system" (which is actually being gamed by the system.)

Creating a good reward system that doesn't create problems with exploitation or alienation among the players is much like creating a solidly designed and executed video game in the horror genre. It's less about having your players gaming the system and more about the system gaming the players.

#67 girl on fire

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 07:59 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 15 November 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:



But watching the players go out of their way to touch everything and NOT get kills, to maximize their scores, so they can show of their Epeen? Seriously laughable.


"Hey guys, I don't need to brag to prove the size of my internet penis..."


Quote

This makes sense, how? Half my highest scores came from absolute crap matches, where the ones I dominated (5-6 kills, 600+ damage in a HBK-4G..... can't help the damage, critter is too efficient at killing, lol) are in the lower half of my qualifying scores.


"... Let me tell you how good I am compared to other people who don't play the way I want them to"

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Was this all a thinly veiled excuse to tell us about your games in a medium mech, or.. Is this a serious complaint about a casual tournament? Either way...

Edited by girl on fire, 15 November 2014 - 08:02 PM.


#68 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:04 PM

View Postgirl on fire, on 15 November 2014 - 07:59 PM, said:


"Hey guys, I don't need to brag to prove the size of my internet penis..."




"... Let me tell you how good I am compared to other people who don't play the way I want them to"

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Was this all a thinly veiled excuse to tell us about your games in a medium mech, or.. Is this a serious complaint about a casual tournament? Either way...

lol. ah, u hurt my feelings.

If I wanted, or needed to do that? Got plenty of screencaps, darling. Except, you see, I don't NEED to.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 15 November 2014 - 08:05 PM.


#69 Crunk Prime

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:08 PM

Take dual ER large lasers in a fast mech and swipe them over every enemy mech and do decent damage. You too can be on the leaderboards!!

Im getting a free million Cbills for getting 10 matches and a Hula Girl. I got what i wanted. Im done with this garbage tournament.

Edited by Crunk Prime, 15 November 2014 - 08:10 PM.


#70 Mazikar

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:36 PM

Honestly if they made kills and assists the same .... everyone would do both as normal... and because people think that some day the KDR might be visible they might go for the kill.

On the flip side my best match was a match I tried to kill everything but couldn't. I did over 1100 damage got only 1 kill and 11 assists with 6 of them being most damage done. It would have scored much better if team mates would have stayed out of my stream of direwolf death... but a couple medium mechs that I couldn't even see since I was zoomed in kept walking in front of my arms, one even told me to stop shooting him until 3 team mates told him to stop walking in front of me when I was already shooting. I did 35 team damage on that one. Sucks because that hits your score hard. Oh well still having fun.

#71 Vassago Rain

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 08:40 PM

MWO, for whatever reason, has a habit of collapsing into the videogame equivalent of tragedy of the commons.

#72 Belkor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:24 PM

Anyone know if this system actually punishes you for getting kills? It gives you 20 points for an assist and 10 points for a kill. Does this mean you actually get penalized 10 points if you kill the target since you missed out on an assist?

#73 Lhaim

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:29 PM

View PostBelkor, on 15 November 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

Anyone know if this system actually punishes you for getting kills? It gives you 20 points for an assist and 10 points for a kill. Does this mean you actually get penalized 10 points if you kill the target since you missed out on an assist?


Yes. If you kill the mech instead of just doing damage to it you get 10 points less.

Edited by Lhaim, 15 November 2014 - 09:37 PM.


#74 SpeedingBus

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:38 PM

I think a bigger issue is PGI put a cap on the amount of c-bills you could earn.. like they expected people to play 100+ games over weekend to earn 100k c-bills in games that you manage not to get insta stomped. PGI really has some problems if they think people want to grind that long for 10 mil c-bills.

Assuming you qualify for 100k cbills in all 100 games and its 5 games an hour. Its 20 hours of god dam play time condensed in 2 days for most people and your not even going to earn the required score in every game.

#75 Belkor

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:48 PM

View PostLhaim, on 15 November 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:


Yes. If you kill the mech instead of just doing damage to it you get 10 points less.


That is pretty dumb. What were the tourney organizers thinking?

Edited by Belkor, 15 November 2014 - 09:50 PM.


#76 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:52 PM

View PostBelkor, on 15 November 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:


That is pretty dumb. What were the tourney organizers thinking?

hence the OP.

#77 poopenshire

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 09:58 PM

I know I am late to the party, I have been part of all 3 Group Events, plus others. I have always been in the top for my organization. I do have to say I agree with the orgininal post. My best scores are from matches where I didn't try.

I just have to scrape a mech to get points. This is not a challange of skill or even talent.

I have to say and I know you all have seen this, assists are great, but to be honest I still feel kill should be worth more....


I am not saying in am the best, just the most average of pilots.

#78 Aresye

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:07 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 15 November 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

And the insult is where?


In the title itself: "Not Sure What Is Sadder, The Actual Scoring System (Tournament) Or The Way Players Are Gaming The System, Lol."

It's not so much an insult as it comes across as very condescending. Yes, PGI created a rather baffling formula that inspires bad play behavior, but to attack the actual players themselves who have no choice in the matter by calling them "sad," that's a bit overboard, don't you think?

I mean, it's not like there aren't any players that just simply want/need the CBills, and the only way for them to do that is to suck up to the tournament formula.

*Edit*
I know your reply wasn't directed at me.

Edited by Aresye, 15 November 2014 - 10:09 PM.


#79 Sjorpha

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:07 PM

View PostAresye, on 15 November 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:


Had a better formula written up on another topic. Basically it was like this:

Score = (Kills x 10) + (Assists x 10) + (Solo Kills x 5) + (Kills Most Damage Dealt x 5) + ([Damage - Team Damage] / 15) + (Wins x 10)

So basically, kill stealing and assist swiping will still happen, but for players to get the best scores they can, they need to maximize damage on target. Wins also count less so when you get a team that just can't pull it together, your effort isn't lost.


That sir, is awesome!

PGI, make this happen^

#80 Crunk Prime

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 10:11 PM

I actually saw players avoid killing almost dead mechs that were killing their teammates, just because they didnt want to get a kill, and wanted the assist instead.

ggclose





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