506 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Deltron Zero, on 17 November 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

That works because you are controlling an entire force of mechs. You don't have to be that unlucky pilot in a damaged mech who feels he is at a disadvantage. Furthermore, in MWO you don't have a commander or leader who understands your mech is damaged and could develop a battle plan with that in mind.

So you are telling me I didn't only have a Regulator tank with its Lift Skirt destroyed for 3 hours at GenCon? I didn't keep playing and making the enemy team sorry they left me alone? Or the time I played in a Wasp with its right leg Kicked off?

In MW:O I can and do have a CO that can do that. DocBach is quite an accomplished CO, and could easily figure out how to utilize a damaged Mech. But PUGs well, they don't, and that leaves it up to me to let the team know I need help, or die silently.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 November 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[Killstorm999999]

Josef Nader, on 17 November 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Immersion or not, I play this game to battle giant robots. Any mechanic that actively discourages me from battling giant robots in one form or another is a bad mechanic, especially when it's the core mechanic of this here video game what we are playing.

Well stated!

it's the core mechanic of this here video game

Anything that disrupts this is no good. R&R is at odds with the core idea of mechs fighting at its most basic level. It's implementation, no matter how simple or nuanced, will not change that. Leave strategic mechanics for strategy games.

[Josef Nader]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

So you are telling me I didn't only have a Regulator tank with its Lift Skirt destroyed for 3 hours at GenCon? I didn't keep playing and making the enemy team sorry they left me alone? Or the time I played in a Wasp with its right leg Kicked off?

In MW:O I can and do have a CO that can do that. DocBach is quite an accomplished CO, and could easily figure out how to utilize a damaged Mech. But PUGs well, they don't, and that leaves it up to me to let the team know I need help, or die silently.

Feel free to strip several tons of armor off your machine and pull out any weapons that got destroyed in the last match for the sake of role playing. Nobody's forcing you to drop at full tonnage, and you can achieve much the same result as R&R by simply taking things off of your mech.

Leave the rest of us out of it. If this was single player and I could carefully manage my team each drop, sure. I loved R&R from MW3 and MW4:Mercs. For this matchmade, arena based shooter where I have minimal input on the layout or composition of my team, the tactics my team uses, or the skill level of the people I'm playing with, I'd much rather have an experience with no consequences than one that kneecaps my favorite mech because my teammates made a poor decision.

[Joseph Mallan]

Deltron Zero, on 17 November 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Well stated!

it's the core mechanic of this here video game

Anything that disrupts this is no good. R&R is at odds with the core idea of mechs fighting at its most basic level. It's implementation, no matter how simple or nuanced, will not change that. Leave strategic mechanics for strategy games.

Then Why do I have to repair weapons and equipment in games like SWTOR, Neverwinter, and other titles? it is part of the system.

[Joseph Mallan]

Josef Nader, on 17 November 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Feel free to strip several tons of armor off your machine and pull out any weapons that got destroyed in the last match for the sake of role playing. Nobody's forcing you to drop at full tonnage, and you can achieve much the same result as R&R by simply taking things off of your mech.

Leave the rest of us out of it. If this was single player and I could carefully manage my team each drop, sure. I loved R&R from MW3 and MW4:Mercs. For this matchmade, arena based shooter where I have minimal input on the layout or composition of my team, the tactics my team uses, or the skill level of the people I'm playing with, I'd much rather have an experience with no consequences than one that kneecaps my favorite mech because my teammates made a poor decision.

The only one who made a bad decision would be you? I never had a problem making my (F)Atlas 100% during ANY phase of R&R and the varying economies we had in Closed Beta and beyond. And I carried 11 tons of ammo in my Left Torso! It was easy to maintain.

[QuantumButler]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Then Why do I have to repair weapons and equipment in games like SWTOR, Neverwinter, and other titles? it is part of the system.

Those are arguably bad systems in those games too.

A thing being in other games =/= thing is good.

The only game I ever saw that made item degradation worth a damn was Dark Souls 2, where it effected your playstyle severely and forced you to bring a backup or two, and even there as long as you weren't an idiot your items were always repaired for free when you rested at a bonfire.

Edited by QuantumButler, 17 November 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[Josef Nader]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Then Why do I have to repair weapons and equipment in games like SWTOR, Neverwinter, and other titles? it is part of the system.

Uh, these are all games with a persistent game world and encounters that were strung together by a carefully constructed series of events designed to challenge you without being overhwelming? Even the PvP gave you time to repair and retrofit your gear between fights, and even if you couldn't afford to repair your gear you could easily go PvE for half an hour and earn enough to get back into the arena. We do not have that luxury here, and this is a very different game. Let's not pretend MWO is something it's not. It's not an MMORPG. It's an arena shooter. We do not have any sort of persistence between fights. We do not have easy PvE we can go do to grind cash. We do not have the ability to go complete some easy quests for fast money. These are different games. Do not compare them.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

The only one who made a bad decision would be you? I never had a problem making my (F)Atlas 100% during ANY phase of R&R and the varying economies we had in Closed Beta and beyond. And I carried 11 tons of ammo in my Left Torso! It was easy to maintain.

The team deciding to group up in an exposed location, or failing to push when they're getting encircled, or not putting pressure on the enemy team is not something I can control. I can certainly try through chat and my own actions, but if the team commits to a poor decision, I'm stuck trying to make the best of it. Don't pretend like you can win this game through solo skill alone. That's not the game we are playing.

I managed to keep my AS7-D running just fine during CB, but that's not the point. The point is that R&R encouraged bad behavior on behalf of the team. It discouraged us fighting robots. It made people not want to risk damage to their machines. This isn't about the cost to keep mechs running. It's never been about that. This is about player psychology and behavior. Even if R&R was so minimal that you could easily keep your Endo/Ferro/XL/ERPPC/Gauss Rifle wielding Atlas packed with LRM ammo running around and fighting for no penalties, people seeing that deduction from their end of match income will affect how they play. By removing that, you eliminate the inhibitor to getting in there and fighting robots. You literally gain nothing by adding R&R, except a thin sense of continuity. It's just not a functional system for this game.

[Hotthedd]

I didn't read all of the posts, so excuse me if this has already been suggested, but why not have both?
You could have house/clan units (not house/clan ALIGNED, but actually paid by your faction as a member of their army), and those units could have free R&R.
Mercenary companies and Lone wolves could have R&R, but also have the potential of making more C-bills with a win (call it salvage, contract negotiation, or whatever)
That way, players who DON'T want R&R don't have to have it, but players who feel like it adds to their experience CAN have it, and nobody is forced either way.

[Joseph Mallan]

Josef Nader, on 17 November 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

Uh, these are all games with a persistent game world and encounters that were strung together by a carefully constructed series of events designed to challenge you without being overhwelming? Even the PvP gave you time to repair and retrofit your gear between fights, and even if you couldn't afford to repair your gear you could easily go PvE for half an hour and earn enough to get back into the arena. We do not have that luxury here, and this is a very different game. Let's not pretend MWO is something it's not. It's not an MMORPG. It's an arena shooter. We do not have any sort of persistence between fights. We do not have easy PvE we can go do to grind cash. We do not have the ability to go complete some easy quests for fast money. These are different games. Do not compare them.



The team deciding to group up in an exposed location, or failing to push when they're getting encircled, or not putting pressure on the enemy team is not something I can control. I can certainly try through chat and my own actions, but if the team commits to a poor decision, I'm stuck trying to make the best of it. Don't pretend like you can win this game through solo skill alone. That's not the game we are playing.

I managed to keep my AS7-D running just fine during CB, but that's not the point. The point is that R&R encouraged bad behavior on behalf of the team. It discouraged us fighting robots. It made people not want to risk damage to their machines. This isn't about the cost to keep mechs running. It's never been about that. This is about player psychology and behavior. Even if R&R was so minimal that you could easily keep your Endo/Ferro/XL/ERPPC/Gauss Rifle wielding Atlas packed with LRM ammo running around and fighting for no penalties, people seeing that deduction from their end of match income will affect how they play. By removing that, you eliminate the inhibitor to getting in there and fighting robots. You literally gain nothing by adding R&R, except a thin sense of continuity. It's just not a functional system for this game.

I never played the lame PvP in those games, there was no point to it but E-peen and I could care less about that. This is not the game we are in right now, it is a shell of what it will be. Or else I have played it for everything it is worth already and I can move on to something else.


But you can attempt to fall back with the lil blue icons on your mini map. I have never once said it can be won solo. But I don't blame others for my mistakes Josef. Very rarely is it someone else's doing that I die. Normally its my turning a corner and finding the enemy... like 7+ of them. Or I take that ONE MORE shot that shuts down my Mech in the middle of a bad place. What everyone else does wrong is their own doing as well.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 November 2014 - 09:41 AM.

[ollo]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

The only one who made a bad decision would be you?

You did find the secret button where you can choose your PUG teammates? And their mechs and loadouts? Great, now where is it?

[Josef Nader]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

I never played the lame PvP in those games, there was no point to it but E-peen and I could care less about that. This is not the game we are in right now, it is a shell of what it will be. Or else I have played it for everything it is worth already and I can move on to something else.


But you can attempt to fall back with the lil blue icons on your mini map. I have never once said it can be won solo. But I don't blame others for my mistakes Josef. Very rarely is it someone else's doing that I die. Normally its my turning a corner and finding the enemy... like 7+ of them. Or I take that ONE MORE shot that shuts down my Mech in the middle of a bad place. What everyone else does wrong is their own doing as well.

Way to completely ignore the rest of the discussion.

You can't fall back to a team that's not there.

You can't break out of being encircled if your team doesn't move with you.

You can't decide your team is in a bad spot and reposition to a better one without your team backing you up. If they don't move, you're screwed.

And yes, many times I die to mistakes I made. Don't think for a second that I'm saying I don't screw up and get myself killed on a regular basis.

Still, that's neither here nor there, and not the topic of the conversation.

Edited by Josef Nader, 17 November 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[Gallowglas]

This has been said numerous times, but I'll reiterate here: having R&R will not dissuade the good players from running expensive builds. It will just encourage them to run more abusive, meta builds. Running a cheaper mech isn't what will secure a victory.

Without some sort of mitigating mechanic, all R&R will do is run off less skilled or newer players. The rich will get richer while the poor or new players will struggle more to advance.

Edited by Gallowglas, 17 November 2014 - 09:55 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Kinda like those units that didn't have a awesome R&R clause in their Contract or less than Stellar rating with High command you mean?

TT had many scenarios where Damage from one battle carried into the next with limited R&R. Chosing to run at less tha 100% is kinda part of a thinking mans game. "What can I get away with and still be effective?" Thinking!

What color DICE you using when CW comes out Joe? I am undecided. Think I'll wait to see what the "hardcore" CW players like to use for DICE.

Jetfire, on 17 November 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

ONLY as a part of CW logistics. In normal matches it is a terrible idea.

Pretty sure that many of CW's "Planetary Defense Forces" will be made up of those players who come from the Normal matches and would likely wish to enjoy them as well.

[Almond Brown]

pyrocomp, on 17 November 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

No, thats just common sense. There can be more to the game.

Well maybe we could get PGI to create a "common sense" module.

Every Mech gets one. It is Cheap and Light and after installation everyone profits.

Because, it is quite obvious, that not everyone has one on their Mechs now.

[Star Witch Esperanza]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 November 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Then Why do I have to repair weapons and equipment in games like SWTOR, Neverwinter, and other titles? it is part of the system.

Neverwinter doesnt have a repair system.

[Fut]

Deltron Zero, on 17 November 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Leave strategic mechanics for strategy games.

The mere fact that you don't think strategy has a place in MWO speaks volumes.... volumes of bad.

Gallowglas, on 17 November 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Without some sort of mitigating mechanic, all R&R will do is run off less skilled or newer players. The rich will get richer while the poor or new players will struggle more to advance.

Actually, with R&R in place people will be forced to actually learn from their mistakes as they would now carry a consequence. People might actually have to try to improve their performance. ****, imagine that...

Almond Brown, on 17 November 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Pretty sure that many of CW's "Planetary Defense Forces" will be made up of those players who come from the Normal matches and would likely wish to enjoy them as well.

Great. Welcome to MWO's Hardcore Mode, time to pull up the big boy pants and join the real war.
Why should CW be diluted to the same consistency of the normal arcade-like Pug-Qs?

Edited by Fut, 17 November 2014 - 10:55 AM.

[Mystere]

Nephera, on 17 November 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

edit: additionally I don't think a whole lot of us want to drop with someone who elected -not- to repair or rearm their mech. Only so we can watch them get blown away in the first salvo of enemy fire.

Other than weird RP or outright douchery, what would motivate someone to drop in an unrepaired mech in CW?

[Josef Nader]

Mystere, on 17 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Other than weird RP or outright douchery, what would motivate someone to drop in an unrepaired mech in CW?

Maximizing income. It's how people made money using the old R&R system. Hide behind the folks who paid for complete mechs, score a few assists, and explode. Rinse and repeat.

[Khobai]

The way I would handle R&R is simple...

at the end of each match you get rewarded a bonus for how undamaged your mech is.

it accomplishes the same thing as repair costs, except its a bonus, rather than a penalty. so instead of cutting into your earnings its adding on top of your earnings.


So basically...

SURVIVOR BONUS (upto 10,000 extra cbills)

(% remaining on mech * tonnage factor) * 10,000 cbills

the tonnage factor is to account for the fact light mechs have less armor than assault mechs. because its much easier to get a light mech to 25% than an assault mech. so its simply a multiplier to keep things fair for mechs of all weight classes.


to prevent abuse, like light mechs running and hiding, only the winning team would be eligible for the survivor bonus, and it would only be activated if you actually do damage to enemy mechs (so no afking or hiding).

Edited by Khobai, 17 November 2014 - 11:00 AM.

[Star Witch Esperanza]

Mystere, on 17 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Other than weird RP or outright douchery, what would motivate someone to drop in an unrepaired mech in CW?

one of those two things or maximizing income. I've seen all three.