506 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 20 November 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

There is a difference between 'new player' and 'poor player'.

12v12 with max tech it's a pretty even fight Clan vs IS. I might even give IS the edge with it's better ballistics.

You do realize that Russ specifically stated "CW is the hardcore mode and earnings will be less. Players are free to drop back into the pub queue and use that in order to earn at a higher rate"

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

You do realize that Russ specifically stated "CW is the hardcore mode and earnings will be less. Players are free to drop back into the pub queue and use that in order to earn at a higher rate"

Yes. That I knew. So with reduced earnings there is no need to add R&R on top of that.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 20 November 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

Yes. That I knew. So with reduced earnings there is no need to add R&R on top of that.

In other words, if you don't like things like that, it's easily remedied by playing in the pub queue instead. Not to mention since CW is no longer "windows" and "seasons" you can easily drop in and out any time and not miss out on a planetary conquest and such.

Honest question my friend:

Do you want a "real" economy in CW?

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Do you want a "real" economy in CW?

Will it only effect CW?

[Sandpit]

yup

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

yup

So economy=R&R?

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 20 November 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

So economy=R&R?

Don't jump to conclusions and I promise I'm not trying to "double talk" or "trick" you into agreeing with anything. Just a simple question.

Do you want a true economy for CW and CW only.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Don't jump to conclusions and I promise I'm not trying to "double talk" or "trick" you into agreeing with anything. Just a simple question.

Do you want a true economy for CW and CW only.

How would a 'true economy' that only impacts one facet of the game even work? Not to mention there is another part of the game where there is infinite Cbills? So all the buying and selling of mechs and gear isn't part of the CW economy? In this case, I would say no.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 20 November 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

How would a 'true economy' that only impacts one facet of the game even work? Not to mention there is another part of the game where there is infinite Cbills? So all the buying and selling of mechs and gear isn't part of the CW economy? In this case, I would say no.

Ok, well then honestly there's nothing that anyone can say in threads like this that you'll ever agree with bud. You don't want an economy in CW (granted you have reasons but the end result is the same).

These discussions are about adding an economy to CW. You don't want that. No amount of trying to explain how an R&R system, adding a true economy, etc. will change that.

Some of us DO want an economy and more depth into the "rabbit hole" that is CW. We already know CW is the "hardcore" mode, we know that it's optional, and we know that it's going to be lore based and such.

What some of are hoping is that we can help come up with ideas that will add more depth to CW. We know there's going to be dropship fees, logistics of moving across intergalactic space and such, so we're coming up with ideas to help increase the depth and challenge to that.

Now as far as how you separate the economy from the pub queues, that's easily remedied by using LP as the currency in the CW queue. That gives CW a separate currency which allows players to still play "deathmatch" and earn cbills to buy new mechs and such (which has no impact on the actual CW other than Player A now has Mech B that they can drop inside of), while allowing for CW to have a completely different currency when paying for logistics, supplies, R&R, etc.

[Zensei]

PGI would have to lower the 'Free To Play Flag' to implement true R&R, I personally have zero interest in it, It has never been in any of the previous games apart from a 'MFB' (Mobile Field Base) in MW3, and you paid a price in exposure, many times I waited for the newly repaired mech to emerge just to destroy it. If this was to be a real viable option then split the game, free to play and something else that would probably generate more money for PGI.

Free to play would bring in the new blood and get them trained, if they choose to advance into a higher paying option then maybe introduce CW and R&R that way, maybe compitiotion enters that way, lots of maybies, BTW, this is just a thought so hold back on draining your diapers.

[Sandpit]

Zensei, on 20 November 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

PGI would have to lower the 'Free To Play Flag' to implement true R&R, I personally have zero interest in it, It has never been in any of the previous games apart from a 'MFB' (Mobile Field Base) in MW3, and you paid a price in exposure, many times I waited for the newly repaired mech to emerge just to destroy it. If this was to be a real viable option then split the game, free to play and something else that would probably generate more money for PGI.

Free to play would bring in the new blood and get them trained, if they choose to advance into a higher paying option then maybe introduce CW and R&R that way, maybe compitiotion enters that way, lots of maybies, BTW, this is just a thought so hold back on draining your diapers.

The only issue with that is there is comparing a single player game with a multiplayer attached to an MMO with a persistent campaign. There's no real comparison there when talking about things like the economy.

[terrycloth]

'Economy' can mean a lot of different things, most of them end up being gamed into irrelevance when they try to apply them to games.

Generally, though, it has to involve buying from and selling things to other players. To even start on it you'd have to reset everyone's mech inventory (or have a separate inventory for that mode) and disallow purchasing mechs from the store. Probably use a separate set of cbills. ('loyalty points'?)

That sort of thing *could* be fun, but only in the same sense that starting over is ever fun -- it's the reason people collect mechs, so that they have something new to level up.

Also, it has nothing to do with R+R.

[Sandpit]

terrycloth, on 20 November 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

'Economy' can mean a lot of different things, most of them end up being gamed into irrelevance when they try to apply them to games.

Generally, though, it has to involve buying from and selling things to other players. To even start on it you'd have to reset everyone's mech inventory (or have a separate inventory for that mode) and disallow purchasing mechs from the store. Probably use a separate set of cbills. ('loyalty points'?)

That sort of thing *could* be fun, but only in the same sense that starting over is ever fun -- it's the reason people collect mechs, so that they have something new to level up.

Also, it has nothing to do with R+R.

don't take the word economy to mean R&R, I was asking Davers a specific question. I never implied that R&R is in and of itself an economy. I was essentially asking him that because there's a lot more to an economy than simply R&R which is my entire point to be honest.

So no, R&R is not an economy, it's one piece of an economy, but I'm not going to take the time to retype a very long and detailed reply that lays out several pieces to an economy for CW that go waaaaaaaaaay beyond JUST R&R

[Zensei]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2014 - 05:04 PM, said:

The only issue with that is there is comparing a single player game with a multiplayer attached to an MMO with a persistent campaign. There's no real comparison there when talking about things like the economy.

just a first step, I may not agree or want R&R in my game but I dont want to say it excludes it either

[Andi Nagasia]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

don't take the word economy to mean R&R, I was asking Davers a specific question. I never implied that R&R is in and of itself an economy. I was essentially asking him that because there's a lot more to an economy than simply R&R which is my entire point to be honest.

So no, R&R is not an economy, it's one piece of an economy, but I'm not going to take the time to retype a very long and detailed reply that lays out several pieces to an economy for CW that go waaaaaaaaaay beyond JUST R&R

I agree,
R&R doesn't = economy,
economy = CW + market Prices + R&R + linguistics + External factors,

even if we get R&R with CW, we would need much more to be a real economy,
please note- linguistics(set as Phase3)

[Sandpit]

So, in the course of another thread this idea was kicked around. I don't take full credit for it as many others have suggested similar over the years and I've just kind of combined them all and refined it a bit.

Let's start with R&R:

Put R&R fees back into the game. I know I know, but sand, we already don't earn much! Well I disagree with that but I understand some feel that way so, in order to counter that, you boost earnings slightly and reduce the R&R fees a bit.
You MUST R&R your mech. I've always thought it was a bit silly that you stomp around, fire of 5 tons of ammo, and don't have to reload that ammo or buy new ammo. Now, stock mechs in stock loadouts wouldn't have to pay for reloads and cadets wouldn't pay for reload and repair. That would prevent new players from getting "hurt" by something digging into their rewards so they can still have all their cash when they "graduate".
Stock mechs don't pay for R&R (if you want fluff for this then explain it as your faction absorbs the cost of that because it's a standard military issue unit, once you start customizing you're paying for it out of pocket, this also helps new players and players trying to save money for new mechs as well as helps justify seeing stock mechs on the field.) Now I realize at the higher Elo brackets that this becomes pretty much a non-factor because they've generally got a stockpile of cash and mechs anyhow, but those players aren't going to be playing against new(er) players still trying to build a hangar.

But why R&R?

Well I'm glad you asked. R&R is essential for adding in an economy that has both rewards and consequences. It has a far reaching implications across other aspects of the game as well. Want to run the LRM boat and spam missiles for 15 minutes burning through 10 tons of ammo? Go for it, but your'e going to have to pay for that ammo.
Want to run that poptart? Hey, that's great too! You're going to have to pay for all that ammo you're shooting downrange though. It doesn't limit what you can take but it does make you think before you just needlessly click that fire button every time you get a 2 second lock or a quick glimpse at a poptart target.
It also adds in something that's sorely needed here. An actual economy. Right now the only thing to spend cbills on are mechs and modules and skills. That means players who have a "set" mech and/or loadout they play almost exclusively, they are not actually spending those cbills which means they're stockpiling.
Now I understand that many are going to say "Stockpiling isn't bad" and I agree to an extent BUT this is where you run into long-term issues. Those players with stockpiles of tens and hundreds of millions of cbills have the ability already (before it's even implemented) to create major imbalances in the economy.

Techs:

Here's another cost associated with R&R as well as refitting a custom design. Techs would be two-fold. They create another sink but also provide bonuses to R&R and Salvage (which I'll cover here momentarily) bonuses after the initial investment is made. No players would be required to have techs but investing the cash up front for techs would pay out dividends in their bonuses.
Techs would be similar to modules. Except you don't "buy" them, you "hire" them for xx matches. Different levels of techs would offer different levels of bonuses.
Green = 10% bonus to salvage, -10% to R&R fees
Regular = 15% bonus
Advanced = 20% bonus
Elite = 25% bonus
Now all of these numbers are purely for example purposes and I'm sure would need to be adjusted. To further diversify have techs broke down into classes. A "light" tech would be able to keep your hangar running but you wouldn't get the R&R bonuses, although you would still get the salvage bonus.
The initial cost for techs would be cbills & xp although you can offer the option to buy them for MC as well (similar to the way arty and such have an MC version).


Salvage:
Here's where things really get interesting. Instead of the current salvage system we have, we need it to be shifted to an actual salvage system. Instead of receiving cbills for salvage, players have a % chance to actually salvage equipment. Component destruction = more chances to salvage and the techs also add a % to salvage as well. Players could then choose to keep the salvaged item or sell it back for the regular "used" item price.

Everyone would have a salvage chance but the techs, component destruction, and such would increase the chances of getting it.

These 3 things would add a lot of depth and immersion to the game and introduce the start of an actual economy for the game.

This is the beginning of the economy in my opinion. I'm including it here because R&R in a vacuum to me is pointless. It has to be looked at in regards to having an entire economy. This is straight out of my thread that's been archived otherwise I would just quoted it instead of pasting like this

[Davers]

Real economies make sense. Real economies involve choices. None of the prices in game reflect game reality. Forcing Clan players to pay through the nose for FF because the mech came with it instead of the much cheaper and better Endo is just silly. Having the LB ACs being the most expensive Acs in game, more than gauss or AC20s, is silly.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 20 November 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Real economies make sense. Real economies involve choices. None of the prices in game reflect game reality. Forcing Clan players to pay through the nose for FF because the mech came with it instead of the much cheaper and better Endo is just silly. Having the LB ACs being the most expensive Acs in game, more than gauss or AC20s, is silly.

You're basing your argument of not having an economy on the arbitrary prices PGI has set on certain pieces of equipment though. That's what I mean by there not being anything anyone can say that will be "ok" for you bud. You simply don't want an economy for CW.
If you don't want an economy then there's no suggestion, idea, adjustment of how it works, etc. that you will agree with.

[Josef Nader]

The prices were set by FASA ages ago, not PGI.

Economies don't work when there is a big gaping hole of infinite money right next to them. You can't generate scarcity when, in the same breath, I can jump over to the PUG cue and pull a million C-Bills every four wins out of my hat.

I'll say it again, the economy should not happen at a player level; it should happen at a unit level. ****, I'm all for just not having player-level rewards in CW. You make no money, pay no R&R, and your personal finances are not influenced. Instead, successful contract payment goes into your unit coffers and individual players are rewarded with loyalty points.

Unit coffers are used to buy and upgrade planetary defenses, drop ships, and maybe somewhere down the line, pay for jump routes.

Loyalty points allow indivudual players to access faction specific content. I listed several examples above, like all players having access to the Atlas -D and -D-DC, but only Steiner players can use the Atlas -S and only Kuritain players could use the -K. There are a few more things that you could do with LP, but that's the big one.

Once these mechs have been acquired, the player can customize them however the hell they want (using C-Bills from the PUG cue), because most importantly I want CW to be competitive. Encouraging anyone to bring a stock mech, ever, is a terrible idea and cheapens the fact that this is supposed to be the hard-fighting front lines of inter-House and House vs. Clan conflict. They wouldn't bring cheap, second line mechs to this fight. We're going to be playing the mainline militaries of each individual faction. The beating heart of the war machine. Every single faction is pumping resources into our pilots to try and crush the other factions.

[Karl Streiger]

I think its funny to read that - RnR would mean that the free players have to use trash cans and grind while the premium users can use there mechs as they want? RnR would be the only reason for me to think about a Light Mech again, or to use a Medium Mech with a Standard Engine - rather than take the additional speed and weapons that is possible by a XL engine

And where is the problem? So you dire wulf with 3 UAC 5 and 3 AC 5 burns trough ammo that even after a extra ordinary round you have +/- 0 C-Bills... .exactly that is the way. You are not a good shot because you can spray a ton of ammo per second into an enemy - you are a good shot if you don't need much ammunition to finish the job.

I realized that there is a self reflecting problems regarding needed ammunition - almost all builds i see have to much ammo. I ususally use 0.75-1t ammo per SRM - 1.5-2ton per LRM and small ballistic or 3 tons for the big ballistics - and my ammo last. I can't even remember - even after thick fighting i did spend all my ammo.

Oh last not least - do you know what happen when RnR was removed? I sold my Commandos - all of them. There was no reason to spend time and frustration in those not improved Mechs (small STD reactor, SHS, Standard Structure and Armor) - i was prey most of the time - but still i earned my money - even more as in my primary Atlas build.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 November 2014 - 06:18 AM.