506 replies to this topic

[VaudeVillain]

I'd say to leave the repair cost out, but put in a rearm cost. People would have to consider diversifying
their weapons more. For 'Mechs who are primarily missile or ballistics, a quirk to reduce ammo costs, but make AMS ammo really cheap overall.

[Andi Nagasia]

i think a balance can be found with how the internals are destroyed,
for example if a Direwolf gets cored early on, with all his/her limbs intact,
all the weapons in her side torsos and arms legs would not have to be repaired,
because they where not destroyed,

this way what you are paying for can be curved,
even when you die early on into a match,

[Sandpit]

ollo, on 23 November 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

I'm ok with not rewarding players that contributed nothing to the game, but the opposite idea of punishing players that are still learning or just had bad luck is nothing i see adding to the gameplay.

then you obviously didn't read the suggestions

first, this is a CW only suggestion. New players aren't expected to, nor required to, jump straight into CW upon creating an account. Before you even say it, no they aren't excluded but CW is the "hard" mode, you enter at your own risk. So no, this doesn't "hurt" new players.

Secondly, I also specifically showed an example and suggestion on how to improve the NPE while allowing for their learning curve, increase their initial awards to decrease the gap, and help them jump in with better gear.


MM isn't a factor in CW. There's no Elo. There's no need to even attempt to argue MM and such in the CW environment.

[Alex Morgaine]

Andi Nagasia, on 24 November 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

i think a balance can be found with how the internals are destroyed,
for example if a Direwolf gets cored early on, with all his/her limbs intact,
all the weapons in her side torsos and arms legs would not have to be repaired,
because they where not destroyed,

this way what you are paying for can be curved,
even when you die early on into a match,

What do you mean with this post?
Do you mean they can curve up costs to someone cored early vs another dire wolf that empties its ammo bins, gets 6 kills, and lives at say 8% structure between head and a remaining side torso with Their team barely winning, say 11/12? Extreme case, yes, but how do we set up the cored unit and the survivor so the survivor doesn't pay half the cost of the mech after rewards in repairs while the cored unit gets (probably) much less for little to no involvement in the match but doesn't go into debt too?

Edited by Frosty Brand, 25 November 2014 - 12:51 AM.

[James Warren]

There is nothing fun about R&R. Its just another button to click after each game. No matter how many convoluted solutions you can find for equitably reincorporating R&R, its a waste of time unless it will actually add enjoyment for the average player.

Online games like WoW only have repair costs as a form of gold sink to balance the player economy. There's nothing fun about them, they just delay the action.

I might even dare to compliment the consumables in MWO because they are gold sinks that are actually fun to use (though perhaps not so much on the receiving end); you get satisfaction out of them whilst slowing your income. Even the consumables, however, are subject to criticisms that they favor the 'Mech elite' rather than the average player.

[Vassago Rain]

James Warren, on 25 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

There is nothing fun about R&R. Its just another button to click after each game. No matter how many convoluted solutions you can find for equitably reincorporating R&R, its a waste of time unless it will actually add enjoyment for the average player.

Online games like WoW only have repair costs as a form of gold sink to balance the player economy. There's nothing fun about them, they just delay the action.

I might even dare to compliment the consumables in MWO because they are gold sinks that are actually fun to use (though perhaps not so much on the receiving end); you get satisfaction out of them whilst slowing your income. Even the consumables, however, are subject to criticisms that they favor the 'Mech elite' rather than the average player.

Some people are so desperate for anything to justify the time they spend grinding they want a skinner box styled button to press that removes a portion of their earnings.

[ice trey]

I like repair and refit, but the main thing I like about it is that it gives a rationale for players to NOT immediately jump on making the most powerful ubermech they possibly can. It was far more likely in the fluff to run into someone with a stock configuration than a custom job, because Customized mechs were hard as hell to keep in working order. Most frequently, customizations were field refits done because of shortages of some kind of gear.

I think a big problem with the game as it stands right now is that there's too much firepower being slung around. When players only had access to single heat sinks, it was much harder to dish out ludicrous amounts of damage, so mechs like the Atlas were giant walls, often leading the charge and soaking up all the damage the other team could throw at it. You don't see that anymore. I think that was one of the strongest points of Role warfare. When the game didn't play like a counterstrikey "I shoot you from the opposite side of the map and you're one-hit-killed" game, filling the jobs of Tank, Scout, Brawler, Missile Support, and Direct fire support made a difference. Not so much anymore. Now it's just "Everybody must deal as much damage as possible"

Edited by ice trey, 25 November 2014 - 02:49 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

ice trey, on 25 November 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

I like repair and refit, but the main thing I like about it is that it gives a rationale for players to NOT immediately jump on making the most powerful ubermech they possibly can. It was far more likely in the fluff to run into someone with a stock configuration than a custom job, because Customized mechs were hard as hell to keep in working order. Most frequently, customizations were field refits done because of shortages of some kind of gear.

I think a big problem with the game as it stands right now is that there's too much firepower being slung around. When players only had access to single heat sinks, it was much harder to dish out ludicrous amounts of damage, so mechs like the Atlas were giant walls, often leading the charge and soaking up all the damage the other team could throw at it. You don't see that anymore. I think that was one of the strongest points of Role warfare. When the game didn't play like a counterstrikey "I shoot you from the opposite side of the map and you're one-hit-killed" game, filling the jobs of Tank, Scout, Brawler, Missile Support, and Direct fire support made a difference. Not so much anymore. Now it's just "Everybody must deal as much damage as possible"

That's not how it actually works, which I proved over two years ago. Rich people can run whatever they want, whenever they want.

Also, balancing stuff by resource cost in such a way is a terribly flawed mechanic, that doesn't work. Also demonstrated historically by mulltiple games, including MWO. No, counter-strike's system where you use your round earnings to buy a weapon aren't comparable to RnR. In fact, they're not even the same thing.

[ice trey]

Vassago Rain, on 25 November 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

That's not how it actually works, which I proved over two years ago. Rich people can run whatever they want, whenever they want.

Also, balancing stuff by resource cost in such a way is a terribly flawed mechanic, that doesn't work. Also demonstrated historically by mulltiple games, including MWO. No, counter-strike's system where you use your round earnings to buy a weapon aren't comparable to RnR. In fact, they're not even the same thing.

R&R or not, Rich or not, find us a way to make players voluntarily limit themselves in spite of having higher tech, better equipment available, so that the closed beta meta of players actually doing specific jobs to help the team comes back, instead of "I'm not pressing R you kill stealing ***" mentalities. So that Atlases go back to being impenetrable walls, so that lights scout for the team rather than just being ECM+ERLL snipers, Where 120 KPH is adequate for a light, and where a 50 point alpha is unheard of.

How we get there is less of an issue than getting there. Personally, I look back to Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries and Mechwarrior 1 and like that system. Of course, I also like Single Player... A lot more than this. However, while single player games are still being put out, this apparently can't apply for the MechWarrior series, whether fan made or studio produced.

...So I grit my teeth and bear it, accept that this is the best that anyone will offer ever again, and hope to hell that they don't make it any worse.

On the note of Counterstrike, that wasn't a reference to the purchasing mechanics, but a reference to people killing other players with one-shot kills from the opposite side of the map.

Edited by ice trey, 25 November 2014 - 04:08 AM.

[Artgathan]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

Stock mechs don't pay for R&R (if you want fluff for this then explain it as your faction absorbs the cost of that because it's a standard military issue unit, once you start customizing you're paying for it out of pocket, this also helps new players and players trying to save money for new mechs as well as helps justify seeing stock mechs on the field.) Now I realize at the higher Elo brackets that this becomes pretty much a non-factor because they've generally got a stockpile of cash and mechs anyhow, but those players aren't going to be playing against new(er) players still trying to build a hangar.

Problem: Elo won't be included in CW - it will be a free-for-all in terms of match making. So new players will indeed be playing against the best players in the game.

[Vassago Rain]

ice trey, on 25 November 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

R&R or not, Rich or not, find us a way to make players voluntarily limit themselves in spite of having higher tech, better equipment available, so that the closed beta meta of players actually doing specific jobs to help the team comes back, instead of "I'm not pressing R you kill stealing ***" mentalities. So that Atlases go back to being impenetrable walls, so that lights scout for the team rather than just being ECM+ERLL snipers, Where 120 KPH is adequate for a light, and where a 50 point alpha is unheard of.

How we get there is less of an issue than getting there. Personally, I look back to Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries and Mechwarrior 1 and like that system. Of course, I also like Single Player... A lot more than this. However, while single player games are still being put out, this apparently can't apply for the MechWarrior series, whether fan made or studio produced.

...So I grit my teeth and bear it, accept that this is the best that anyone will offer ever again, and hope to hell that they don't make it any worse.

On the note of Counterstrike, that wasn't a reference to the purchasing mechanics, but a reference to people killing other players with one-shot kills from the opposite side of the map.

Bro, man, dude, sir, back in closed beta, you were either in the most blinged-out robot possible, with a cash bonus, or you were in scrubgreen trash robots that entered battle at 75% life.

No one with any common sense or brainpower actually ran tech 1 robots unless they were totally new to the game.

Atlases have never been walls, and lights never went slow. Slow lights are bad lights.

And while we're on the subject, my ancient 2012 era DDC had a 71 point damage alphastrike back then. You think this is all new stuff, or something?

Edited by Vassago Rain, 25 November 2014 - 05:01 AM.

[Sandpit]

James Warren, on 25 November 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

There is nothing fun TO ME about R&R.

FTFY
fun is subjective and there are some who find it fun even though YOU don't.

ice trey, on 25 November 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

R&R or not, Rich or not, find us a way to make players voluntarily limit themselves in spite of having higher tech, better equipment available, so that the closed beta meta of players actually doing specific jobs to help the team comes back, instead of "I'm not pressing R you kill stealing ***" mentalities. So that Atlases go back to being impenetrable walls, so that lights scout for the team rather than just being ECM+ERLL snipers, Where 120 KPH is adequate for a light, and where a 50 point alpha is unheard of.

How we get there is less of an issue than getting there. Personally, I look back to Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries and Mechwarrior 1 and like that system. Of course, I also like Single Player... A lot more than this. However, while single player games are still being put out, this apparently can't apply for the MechWarrior series, whether fan made or studio produced.

...So I grit my teeth and bear it, accept that this is the best that anyone will offer ever again, and hope to hell that they don't make it any worse.

On the note of Counterstrike, that wasn't a reference to the purchasing mechanics, but a reference to people killing other players with one-shot kills from the opposite side of the map.

The arguments against it always equate to something along the lines of "I don't think it would be fun, I don't want any limitations on how and what I can run every single match"

That doesnt' mean those arguments aren't "valid", it just means that they're only valid for those stating them and not indicative of any majority in the player base and you'll never get them to understand that

[ollo]

Sandpit, on 25 November 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

FTFY
fun is subjective and there are some who find it fun even though YOU don't.

The arguments for it always equate to something along the lines of "I don't think it would be fun, I don't want any limitations on how and what I can run every single match"

That doesnt' mean those arguments aren't "valid", it just means that they're only valid for those stating them and not indicative of any majority in the player base and you'll never get them to understand that

FTFY, too. Well, obviously this all boils down to personal opinions on what is fun, so i'd say a 'hardcore' checkbox in config is the best option by now. You can just activate it and enjoy the thrill of paying extra or playing sub-par mechs, if that's fun for you, and those that think this is an abysmal idea can deactivate it. Deal?

[Sandpit]

ollo, on 25 November 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

FTFY, too. Well, obviously this all boils down to personal opinions on what is fun, so i'd say a 'hardcore' checkbox in config is the best option by now. You can just activate it and enjoy the thrill of paying extra or playing sub-par mechs, if that's fun for you, and those that think this is an abysmal idea can deactivate it. Deal?

The flaw in your logic?

You ALREADY HAVE game modes where R&R isn't an issue. Don't like R&R? PLAY THOSE MODES

see, I'm not the one asking to game to cater exclusively to me. You're asking the game to exclusively cater to you and your idea of fun.

[P5YCO]

The only way the current community would accept R&R is if the C-Bills you could earn in a match increased to suit.

[pyrocomp]

P5YCO, on 25 November 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

The only way the current community would accept R&R is if the C-Bills you could earn in a match increased to suit.

This point included in each and every new topic about R&R and overlooked in each and every instance of R&R discussion.

PS: there is some point that good players will have on average higher R&R bill just as they almost always shield, twist and spread incoming damage and don't die with almost all armour intact save CT of single ST on the back. Plus the weapons don't have to be destroyed when an arm is cut off. Some other and much more lower crit rate should be introduced to actually destroy a weapon rather than jamming feeder of cutting its power wiring.

[Sandpit]

P5YCO, on 25 November 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

The only way the current community would accept R&R is if the C-Bills you could earn in a match increased to suit.

pyrocomp, on 25 November 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

This point included in each and every new topic about R&R and overlooked in each and every instance of R&R discussion.

PS: there is some point that good players will have on average higher R&R bill just as they almost always shield, twist and spread incoming damage and don't die with almost all armour intact save CT of single ST on the back. Plus the weapons don't have to be destroyed when an arm is cut off. Some other and much more lower crit rate should be introduced to actually destroy a weapon rather than jamming feeder of cutting its power wiring.

no, what's looked over in each and every R&R post is that it's a CW feature suggestion which has a completely separate earning rate than pub matches and nobody has ever said "don't adjust economy to account for that" in these discussions.

[Alex Morgaine]

Further thoughts: we need a working item trade/sell/buy economy, so that item shortages are the"tax" not a flat cost. That will effect everyone equally rich or poor, doesn't matter how many 0s you have in your cbill account when there aren't any ppcs outside of salvage in your neck of the universe. Obviously certain gear like, oh easy generalization, anything less then 100k (excluding ammo, which would start and reset supply in the 100 thousands, and reset every week/month/time period) should be available to allow people to get their mechs back in the fight. Now that would beat out a simple "tax".

Edited by Frosty Brand, 25 November 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[Prussian Havoc]

SuomiWarder, on 16 November 2014 - 12:00 AM, said:

I am seriously surprised that a bunch of people are so dead set against having the inner game of balancing cost vs risk. Maybe in community warfare only. As an old hand I would welcome having actual logistical costs involved in running our Merc unit. It was part of the fun - not a drag "that was going to kill the game."

Great point... perhaps they could have an "OPT IN" selection for R&R!

A key aspect will need to be that while you can on average exceed non-OPT IN C-bill earnings, if mismanaged you earn less, eventually going bankrupt and being ejected from the OPT IN R&R, in which case you are just back to the normal game like we have now. Also an "OPT OUT" button would be useful to, so gamers can go back and forth as desired.

[Alex Morgaine]

Additional: Make a nice 1-300k flat reward (adjust as needed for player retention), lost items are LOST (starts making the economy actually work), exception maybe engines (unless... how do we balance this so people dont go broke if they do decide to run xl? That was a problem I noticed with the first R&R people ran into), and salvage off wrecks round robin style, maybe add a wishlist system for people looking for that one item, a sort of need/greed you can set before a match starts. Trials don't lose items, so you can pilot them for full rewards at the cost of no customization and mech skills.