Bog could use more smaller trees. I see some of them scattered here and there, but i would rather them take out a big tree or grass so they are able to render some more of the smaller trees.
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#62
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Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:53 PM
Jin Ma, on 18 November 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:
Bog could use more smaller trees. I see some of them scattered here and there, but i would rather them take out a big tree or grass so they are able to render some more of the smaller trees.
Oh yes! But imagine a map with a whole forest of these beautiful, green trees! And seeing heavy mechs and assault mechs tower above them, while small light mechs run under the canopy!
I still believe!!
Dennis de Koning plz!!!
#63
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Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:02 PM
Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 16 November 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:
First of all, I'm thrilled to see that Viridian Bog is finally giving MWO the lush, vivid, colourful enviroment that fans have been asking for since 2012. I view it as a sign that MWO is now paying more attention to what fans are asking for, combined with the fact that they know enough about CryEngine to give us stuff that they didn't know how to do before.
That being said, there's still two major issues with most of the maps in MWO and Viridian Bog looks like it has the same issue. First, there's no sense of scale. It doesn't feel like I'm piloting a huge 100 ton walker. Whether I'm on Tourmaline, Terra Therma, Alpine, HPG (especially this one!) or Canyon Network, it's very hard to get a sense of just how big my mech is.
There are some scattered cars and buildings here and there, but they are few and far between. If you're standing on any given position on the maps mentioned above, you're probably looking at a view that would be just as appropriate for a normal FPS like Halo.
The urban maps are a lot better. Frozen City, Crimson Strait, River City. Which leads us to the second issue: not feeling like you're piloting a big and powerful mechs. While these maps do give you a good sense of scale, you're still smaller than most buildings. You can't even destroy trees, traffic lights or cars, let alone skyscrapers.
Previous MW-games had several areas that gave you both the sense of scale and the sense of power that you want from a Mechwarrior game.
I'm really hoping that future maps will both establish a firm sense of scale, so it's always easy to see that you're actually ten or twenty meters off the ground, and also give the player a sense of power by letting him or her walk through settlements, bases and forests like a huge hulking monster, without being blocked by massive skyscrapers and vastly overgrown alien plants all the time.
I made this illustration to explain what I'm looking for.
That being said, there's still two major issues with most of the maps in MWO and Viridian Bog looks like it has the same issue. First, there's no sense of scale. It doesn't feel like I'm piloting a huge 100 ton walker. Whether I'm on Tourmaline, Terra Therma, Alpine, HPG (especially this one!) or Canyon Network, it's very hard to get a sense of just how big my mech is.
There are some scattered cars and buildings here and there, but they are few and far between. If you're standing on any given position on the maps mentioned above, you're probably looking at a view that would be just as appropriate for a normal FPS like Halo.
The urban maps are a lot better. Frozen City, Crimson Strait, River City. Which leads us to the second issue: not feeling like you're piloting a big and powerful mechs. While these maps do give you a good sense of scale, you're still smaller than most buildings. You can't even destroy trees, traffic lights or cars, let alone skyscrapers.
Previous MW-games had several areas that gave you both the sense of scale and the sense of power that you want from a Mechwarrior game.
Spoiler
I'm really hoping that future maps will both establish a firm sense of scale, so it's always easy to see that you're actually ten or twenty meters off the ground, and also give the player a sense of power by letting him or her walk through settlements, bases and forests like a huge hulking monster, without being blocked by massive skyscrapers and vastly overgrown alien plants all the time.
I made this illustration to explain what I'm looking for.
I agree completely.
The scale in this game (and I'm not talking about realism, or scaling by numbers - I'm talking about feel) is waaaaay off. A giant tree planet is cool and but it does kill the big stompy robot vibe. This is Mechwarrior not Hawken after all.
Of course cover is important. But with some more effort cover can be designed in other ways without reverting to standard FPS vocabulary. Giant mechs don't hide behind trees, they crash through them and stomp the remains into the ground! Crunch! Smash!
And for sure more commonplace items like cars, planes, boats, houses, etc. will help with reinforcing the perception of scale.
Also, I think falling speed needs to be tweaked as well. Those mechs fall over way to fast. Maybe the numbers are right, but it looks wrong. Like a toy falling over.
Edited by Dagadegatto, 08 December 2014 - 02:03 PM.
#64
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Posted 23 March 2015 - 08:23 PM
Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 16 November 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:
First of all, I'm thrilled to see that Viridian Bog is finally giving MWO the lush, vivid, colourful enviroment that fans have been asking for since 2012. I view it as a sign that MWO is now paying more attention to what fans are asking for, combined with the fact that they know enough about CryEngine to give us stuff that they didn't know how to do before.
That being said, there's still two major issues with most of the maps in MWO and Viridian Bog looks like it has the same issue. First, there's no sense of scale. It doesn't feel like I'm piloting a huge 100 ton walker. Whether I'm on Tourmaline, Terra Therma, Alpine, HPG (especially this one!) or Canyon Network, it's very hard to get a sense of just how big my mech is.
There are some scattered cars and buildings here and there, but they are few and far between. If you're standing on any given position on the maps mentioned above, you're probably looking at a view that would be just as appropriate for a normal FPS like Halo.
The urban maps are a lot better. Frozen City, Crimson Strait, River City. Which leads us to the second issue: not feeling like you're piloting a big and powerful mechs. While these maps do give you a good sense of scale, you're still smaller than most buildings. You can't even destroy trees, traffic lights or cars, let alone skyscrapers.
Previous MW-games had several areas that gave you both the sense of scale and the sense of power that you want from a Mechwarrior game.
I'm really hoping that future maps will both establish a firm sense of scale, so it's always easy to see that you're actually ten or twenty meters off the ground, and also give the player a sense of power by letting him or her walk through settlements, bases and forests like a huge hulking monster, without being blocked by massive skyscrapers and vastly overgrown alien plants all the time.
I made this illustration to explain what I'm looking for.
That being said, there's still two major issues with most of the maps in MWO and Viridian Bog looks like it has the same issue. First, there's no sense of scale. It doesn't feel like I'm piloting a huge 100 ton walker. Whether I'm on Tourmaline, Terra Therma, Alpine, HPG (especially this one!) or Canyon Network, it's very hard to get a sense of just how big my mech is.
There are some scattered cars and buildings here and there, but they are few and far between. If you're standing on any given position on the maps mentioned above, you're probably looking at a view that would be just as appropriate for a normal FPS like Halo.
The urban maps are a lot better. Frozen City, Crimson Strait, River City. Which leads us to the second issue: not feeling like you're piloting a big and powerful mechs. While these maps do give you a good sense of scale, you're still smaller than most buildings. You can't even destroy trees, traffic lights or cars, let alone skyscrapers.
Previous MW-games had several areas that gave you both the sense of scale and the sense of power that you want from a Mechwarrior game.
Spoiler
I'm really hoping that future maps will both establish a firm sense of scale, so it's always easy to see that you're actually ten or twenty meters off the ground, and also give the player a sense of power by letting him or her walk through settlements, bases and forests like a huge hulking monster, without being blocked by massive skyscrapers and vastly overgrown alien plants all the time.
I made this illustration to explain what I'm looking for.
If I could point out only ONE thing about MWO that I wish, over and above all else, that PGI would fix - one thing among the many, many, many dozen-plus issues plaguing the game as is- THIS would be it. A better approach to immersion.
#65
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Posted 24 March 2015 - 01:19 AM
Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 16 November 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:
First of all, I'm thrilled to see that Viridian Bog is finally giving MWO the lush, vivid, colourful enviroment that fans have been asking for since 2012.
I honestly don't think it did very much. Yeah it's nice to have a green map.. but its entirely green. They effectively just color swapped green in for white brown or beige. still the same monochromatic issues. This is space in a science fiction universe yet the maps we have honestly show very little imagination.
Side note, Bog would be so much more fun if we didn't have magic red boxes or thermal vision making the enviroment completely irrelevant. It would have been awesome if the fog was a weather effect that rolled through periodically causing lock on boxes not to work and thermal vision to flicker. But that would make the map feel more like a real planet and not just another arena.. can't have that..
#66
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Posted 24 March 2015 - 02:04 AM
The scale I am most worried about is not the size of objects. Its the size of the maps. Alpine peak should be the absolute smallest map. Especially for community warfare.
#67
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Posted 05 April 2015 - 02:16 PM
Kjudoon, on 24 March 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:
The scale I am most worried about is not the size of objects. Its the size of the maps. Alpine peak should be the absolute smallest map. Especially for community warfare.
+1
#68
Posted 05 April 2015 - 03:01 PM
Yep, scale seems overlooked too often, not giving a very good feel for the size of your Mech.
Aside from maps being improved, I'd like to see an option to walk around your Mech as a person in your Hanager, like Star Citizen. It really helps sell the size of ships being able to walk around them, and look down on them from the upper levels, would be neat to have several of your Mechs loaded up next to each other too.
Was commenting on another thread about recording replays that you could fly around and view the battle. An addition that would add a cool sense of scale would be to allow movement through the map as a person. Watching Mechs battle it out from ground like that would be pretty epic.
Aside from maps being improved, I'd like to see an option to walk around your Mech as a person in your Hanager, like Star Citizen. It really helps sell the size of ships being able to walk around them, and look down on them from the upper levels, would be neat to have several of your Mechs loaded up next to each other too.
Was commenting on another thread about recording replays that you could fly around and view the battle. An addition that would add a cool sense of scale would be to allow movement through the map as a person. Watching Mechs battle it out from ground like that would be pretty epic.
#69
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Posted 06 April 2015 - 03:57 AM
Quxudica, on 24 March 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:
I honestly don't think it did very much. Yeah it's nice to have a green map.. but its entirely green. They effectively just color swapped green in for white brown or beige. still the same monochromatic issues. T
On a similar note, the new CW map with grass and trees actually has rock textures just tinted green for extra green-ness. Not sure why they hate grass so much.
But other than that, it does look pretty good.
#70
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Posted 06 April 2015 - 04:31 AM
It's a problem of scale from item to item, not so much mech to item. It's either big enough for cover or tiny.
Tiny cars, freeway size streets and pavement cracks that would swallow the cars and over thick paint lines.
Tall trees, but as thick as giant trees. Boulders but no real gravel.
It's ok to have large items, but without small detail it just feels like a human size running around.
Tiny cars, freeway size streets and pavement cracks that would swallow the cars and over thick paint lines.
Tall trees, but as thick as giant trees. Boulders but no real gravel.
It's ok to have large items, but without small detail it just feels like a human size running around.
#71
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Posted 22 April 2015 - 11:20 AM
The maps could use a bit of growth, and a bit more "opennness". Yeah yeah, cover... but I think this might be a bit of historical dogma resulting from early LRMs. Walking around in MW:O feels claustrophobic most of the time... like the map designers are given a specific instruction: "At all times a mech must be within 20m of a near-vertical structure or terrain feature that extends at least 1.5 times the height of a Dire Wolf so that they can take cover from LRM's".
There are better ways to handle this and in fact it may already have been handled with ECM, AMS, spread, etc, but the historical cover zealotry has never been dropped.
Even the more open maps tend towards brawls. Alpine Peaks can be fun, but often descends into a brawl at the top of the mountain. Caustic Valley and Terra Therma have way too much focus on the close quarters centre. CV can be played around the edges but that seems to happen rarely. TT is just ridiculous. You can get nice long sight lines on HPG manifold *if* you fight for the centre... but if you're fighting for the centre you're brawling, and when the smoke clears there's nobody left to play tactically. Tourmaline looks good when you spawn, but again, the battle so often takes place in one of two or three narrow passes at about 300m or less, with mechs shouldering each other out of the way for firing lines, or running across friendly firing lines.
How often have you played a match where you *don't* have to be constantly concerned about friendlies crossing in front of your crosshair? The degree to which this happens says a great deal about the layouts.
There's not much room for flanking or other tactical manoeuvres given the map size, and not much point either when most of the battles end up happening "indoors" (surrounded by 2-or-more-mech-high walls).
Scale down the vertical axis, provide a bit more rolling terrain, increase the maps sizes by, ooh, 50%, and we might see some tactics other than deathball vs deathball.
There are better ways to handle this and in fact it may already have been handled with ECM, AMS, spread, etc, but the historical cover zealotry has never been dropped.
Even the more open maps tend towards brawls. Alpine Peaks can be fun, but often descends into a brawl at the top of the mountain. Caustic Valley and Terra Therma have way too much focus on the close quarters centre. CV can be played around the edges but that seems to happen rarely. TT is just ridiculous. You can get nice long sight lines on HPG manifold *if* you fight for the centre... but if you're fighting for the centre you're brawling, and when the smoke clears there's nobody left to play tactically. Tourmaline looks good when you spawn, but again, the battle so often takes place in one of two or three narrow passes at about 300m or less, with mechs shouldering each other out of the way for firing lines, or running across friendly firing lines.
How often have you played a match where you *don't* have to be constantly concerned about friendlies crossing in front of your crosshair? The degree to which this happens says a great deal about the layouts.
There's not much room for flanking or other tactical manoeuvres given the map size, and not much point either when most of the battles end up happening "indoors" (surrounded by 2-or-more-mech-high walls).
Scale down the vertical axis, provide a bit more rolling terrain, increase the maps sizes by, ooh, 50%, and we might see some tactics other than deathball vs deathball.
Edited by allmhuran, 22 April 2015 - 11:21 AM.
#72
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Posted 22 April 2015 - 12:08 PM
I look forward to the resize of River City which is currently underway to an 8x8 grid (still too small really. I want to see 12x12+ being the smallest). I am really curious as to how they're going to redo Frozen City, Canyon Network, and Forest Colony.
#73
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Posted 22 April 2015 - 12:57 PM
"dinosaur bone"
sure it is
sure it is
#74
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Posted 22 April 2015 - 03:49 PM
I updated the OP! Finally. It's been bugging me that the illustrations were really bad and didn't do justice to the argument I was trying to make.
I totally agree with that. I think the concept that - unfortunately, misleadingly - described Grim Portico was perfect.
"Do you stay in cover or do you dare to leave cover and enter the dangerous open areas"? If a map forces you to make that choice, that's fantastic. Most maps either don't force you to make that choice (e.g. Viridian Bog, cover everywhere) or make the choice all too easy (e.g. Alpine, only a few good positions to fight, where all matches end up)
What else could it be?
allmhuran, on 22 April 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:
The maps could use a bit of growth, and a bit more "opennness".
I totally agree with that. I think the concept that - unfortunately, misleadingly - described Grim Portico was perfect.
"Do you stay in cover or do you dare to leave cover and enter the dangerous open areas"? If a map forces you to make that choice, that's fantastic. Most maps either don't force you to make that choice (e.g. Viridian Bog, cover everywhere) or make the choice all too easy (e.g. Alpine, only a few good positions to fight, where all matches end up)
Ghogiel, on 22 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:
"dinosaur bone"
sure it is
sure it is
What else could it be?
Spoiler
#75
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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:08 PM
Love your work.
#76
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Posted 09 May 2015 - 01:25 PM
Bobzilla, on 06 April 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:
It's a problem of scale from item to item, not so much mech to item. It's either big enough for cover or tiny.
Tiny cars, freeway size streets and pavement cracks that would swallow the cars and over thick paint lines.
Tall trees, but as thick as giant trees. Boulders but no real gravel.
It's ok to have large items, but without small detail it just feels like a human size running around.
Tiny cars, freeway size streets and pavement cracks that would swallow the cars and over thick paint lines.
Tall trees, but as thick as giant trees. Boulders but no real gravel.
It's ok to have large items, but without small detail it just feels like a human size running around.
EXACTLY
#77
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Posted 09 May 2015 - 01:28 PM
allmhuran, on 22 April 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:
Scale down the vertical axis, provide a bit more rolling terrain, increase the maps sizes by, ooh, 50%, and we might see some tactics other than deathball vs deathball.
Yep. Simply changing the maps to have REALISTIC terrain would do wonders. Always loved the terrain and environments in MW3. Long, open, rolling valleys and hills that gradually gave way to more steeply-inclined features. Or narrow, mechanical, cramped passageways that did more to handicap your movement than it did to conveniently protect you from enemy fire. And multiple settlements/outposts dotting the landscape that, although they were small, MADE SENSE as places actual human beings would dwell in. It was so immersive.
#78
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Posted 09 May 2015 - 01:33 PM
Kjudoon, on 24 March 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:
The scale I am most worried about is not the size of objects. Its the size of the maps. Alpine peak should be the absolute smallest map. Especially for community warfare.
Larger maps would be cool, but ONLY if PGI can manage to drastically improve their map design philosophies FIRST. Alpine Peaks may be one of the largest maps in the game, but it is also one of the most one-dimensional. Size doesn't matter when everyone just goes to the same spot every time. Alpine could increase in size ten-fold and would become no better without some significant changes to its basic design. Terrain scale is one of those required significant changes.
#79
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Posted 09 May 2015 - 01:54 PM
Just for our assay, here's the MW4 intro.
There are a couple good scenes to get an idea of scaling. In the forest, the trees are far larger than mechs (makes me think of the redwood forest.) Toward the end while they're blowing up cars, most heavies are really only about 3-4 cars end to end in height.
There are a couple good scenes to get an idea of scaling. In the forest, the trees are far larger than mechs (makes me think of the redwood forest.) Toward the end while they're blowing up cars, most heavies are really only about 3-4 cars end to end in height.
#80
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Posted 09 May 2015 - 01:57 PM
Gurren Lagann sized mechs! I wanna fight on top of Galaxies!
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