84 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

Revorn, on 17 November 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

This is a perfect example.
In the huge - Dragon Slayer you should be 12-15m above the ground... a 3-4story building should be sufficient - look out of the window - does the car look so small? This trucks - while they look good - doesn't seem to be 2-3m in height - maybe they are miniature models for kids in a theme park.

Next is the view distance - the crosshair says 64m - if you take 64m - as given the scale looks ok - blend the cockpit and try to imagine a human beeing at 64m then take the 10m in to your direction and place them next to the cars.... it would work this way.... but not with the cockpit

[CocoaJin]

It's the cockpits that's throws it off...it's way to big.

[Tristan Winter]

CocoaJin, on 17 November 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

It's the cockpits that's throws it off...it's way to big.

No matter how small the cockpit is, maps like Alpine and Tourmaline would still need some sort of visual reference points to establish the scale. Not just hills. Regardless of the cockpit size there are many MWO maps that would look just as good for Counter Strike as for MWO. That's not a good thing.

[Dulahan]

One interesting thing is how.... minimal 100 tons really is. A lot of the 'scale' figures are WAY bigger than their weight would indicate, by an almost exponential amount at that. 10m? A Small mech... just under 30 feet tall?

Point of comparison, an M1-A2 Abrams tank is smaller than that. And weighs in at @68ish tons according to Wikipedia. It's only about 26 feet long. Smaller than the smaller end of mechs by lore. And it uses a very dense, heavy material (Depleted Uranium) for armor too. Mechs in total volume should actually be a lot heavier given their relative scale and sizes. Unless the material making them up is supernaturally light.

[Killstorm999999]

Dulahan, on 17 November 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Mechs in total volume should actually be a lot heavier given their relative scale and sizes. Unless the material making them up is supernaturally light.

In a world where it's practical to build walking robot instead of driving tanks, I must imagine they have some pretty impressive materials to make it possible. So yeah, super light it is!

[Rebas Kradd]

Zyllos, on 16 November 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

I think the problem here is that we have not had urban or natural maps that the majority of the elements are smaller than the mechs.

One thing this presents in making these types of maps is that the only blocking LOS/cover is basically the ground. This might be considered a "high risk" to map developers because of the "uninteresting" nature of a map that is basically is a "flat" map.

The previous MechWarrior titles had absolutely no problem with flat maps. Using them here would inject a huge jolt of nostalgia into the game and would also come across as very realistic. Most of the terrain I see in MWO would never get colonized by humans because it just isn't flat enough.

Of course, you'd have to provide some type of rolling hills to prevent domination by gauss or LRMs. But that's doable. As it is, the current maps are trying way too hard to provide varied terrain. When Russ/Smith & Tinker sat down and established circle-strafing as something to be avoided, did they ever ask us?

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 17 November 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Rebas Kradd, on 17 November 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

The previous MechWarrior titles had absolutely no problem with flat maps. Using them here would inject a huge jolt of nostalgia into the game and would also come across as very realistic.

I agree 100%. It's why I started this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...ior-landscapes/

[Brody319]

I think large flap maps would be a terrible idea. LRMs, gauss rifles, and PPCs would destroy anyone before they could get into weapons range. Older games had not only weight restrictions but hard point size restrictions, which meant that you couldn't run twin gauss on very many mechs. Hell 4 PPCs was one of the most powerful builds in Mechwarrior 4: Mercs/

[Tynan]

I don't think it's terrain as much as it is lack of other elements that you're fighting. (the cockpit, too, as mentioned)

In previous MW titles you fought Elementals, tanks and other vehicles, and aerospace fighters. Those were all tiny compared to the other mechs and reinforced that sense of scale. Without those--without other combat elements that are significantly smaller--the background just isn't going to do it.

This has been talked about before, they actually did scale these things appropriately, it's just doesn't "feel" right.

[Asmudius Heng]

Viktor Drake, on 16 November 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

This is the real problem. Maps are mech sized, not real sized. I mean I used to be big into mountaineering and backpacking and the type of terrain we see common in MWO isn't that common. In most realistic terrain, a 15m tall robot would find itself standing at least chest and shoulders above anything around it.

Actually just look at MM:LL if you want proper scale. The map there all look like real terrain features.

I do not mind the reasons for a few giant things to help with cover for mechs and make a better GAME .... but yea i agree that the mix of realistic immesive terrain and objects is far outweighed by game type objects.

Both need to be in there, right now the lack of immersion details is a little dissapointing.

Mind you i would prefer them to err on a good game experience - but if they do a map run through like they want i would love this to be a major considration.

[CocoaJin]

Dulahan, on 17 November 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

One interesting thing is how.... minimal 100 tons really is. A lot of the 'scale' figures are WAY bigger than their weight would indicate, by an almost exponential amount at that. 10m? A Small mech... just under 30 feet tall?

Point of comparison, an M1-A2 Abrams tank is smaller than that. And weighs in at @68ish tons according to Wikipedia. It's only about 26 feet long. Smaller than the smaller end of mechs by lore. And it uses a very dense, heavy material (Depleted Uranium) for armor too. Mechs in total volume should actually be a lot heavier given their relative scale and sizes. Unless the material making them up is supernaturally light.

Mechs are made with relatively light weight structures. They no doubt use as much weight and material saving techniques for the skeleton as typical operation stresses would allow. Then light weight armor plates are bolt and hung on to these structure akin to medieval/samurai armor. But yeah, mechs are far from rolling bunkers of hardened armor.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

I agree with Nicolai's OP 100%. The city maps are OK for giving a sense of scale, but too many other maps make the mechs feel man sized. It's a bit frustrating because it wouldn't take much to add a sprinkle of recognisable objects like cars or buildings to give that sense of scale. Earlier MW games actually did it better. I remember walking along lines of street lights and across road junctions in MW4 gave a very nice feeling of size.

Walking under the daisies on the new map might actually make our mechs feel smaller than man sized, which would be a first, but let's wait and see.

[EvilCow]

Viges, on 16 November 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

Indeed.
http://bg.battletech...s-and-vehicles/

I can't see the problem, do you want some kind of a world where everything is tiny or smth OP to feel bigger?..

The problem with the above image is that those vehicles are too small and look fake. One vehicle like that should have about the same size of a mech (horizontally).

Those are toys on the ground.

[TygerLily]

CocoaJin, on 16 November 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

I think a major reason why scale feels off is because even though the mechs are to scale, the internal cockpits are not.

The choice to use larger than scale cockpits was great for increasing FOV from the cockpit, but it essentially shrunk the world around it from a pilot viewing perspective. So until that scale mis-match is reconciled, there is nothing that can be easily done to fix it.

No, no silly. You're wearing a neurohelment and the larger FOV you see is from external optical sensors...yea...yea....that's it....

[Tarogato]

Alistair Winter, on 17 November 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

I agree 100%. It's why I started this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...ior-landscapes/

No Alistair, you're not the only one that prefers the old vast flat maps with lacking features.
We do needs some "classic" style maps in this game, in particular the one you screenshotted is a favourite of mine, as well as the first couple missions from CJF and Wolf.

[EvilCow]

I would like something like MW4's Big city:
- Urban and very large.
- Urban but not cluttered.
- Zones for knife range combat and long range combat.
- Lot of movement and flanking.

I was so big that I think there are parts I never visited.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

EvilCow, on 18 November 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

I would like something like MW4's Big city:

Was that the one with the park in the middle? Great map!

[William Mountbank]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 16 November 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

Well, it does produce a cloud right now, at least on some maps. But the cloud is gone in 0.1 seconds, so it looks more like you dropped a bun on a table covered by flour, or dropped your cat on a snow-covered lawn.

Other than that, I agree with you. It's a shame they toned down the smoke from jump jets too. This game just needs more smoke, dust, debris and fire in general.

Unfortunately I think this is the spot between a rock and a hard place. The MWO engine has a major issue with generating smoke particles. The number of particles seems to be less of a problem than screen area covered - which is why if you're zoomed right in and shooting ER-PPCs till you overheat, your mech's steam makes your framerate drop catastrophically, and it only rises when you zoom out. Maybe it's an alpha blending problem, or some stupid roundabout way of coding the particles, I don't know, but it sure isn't ever going to be fixed.

Sadly that means the impetus is there to continually reduce smoke, steam, debris, and other scale enhancing effects in favour of increased framerates. I think it would be awesome if big mechs churned up long lasting dust in canyon, or that big guns made big smoke, or even that wind direction had an effect on visibility. But it's not coming during this MW round, it's just not technically feasible.

[EvilCow]

RocketDog, on 18 November 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

Was that the one with the park in the middle? Great map!

Yes, was like having a map in the map. Lot of action around there.

[Karl Streiger]

Most interesting although most maps in MW 4 had vast and open terrain, it was still possible to use smooth rolling hills to use for cover.

OK we know why we have tons of cover in MWO - simple because Devs decicded that Sniper Meta isn't a good game design - so instead of limiting the capability of sniper weapons, we had a limitation of sniper positions. Resulting in an MWO that looks like trench warfare - and the DWF- became the Maxim water cooled machine gun