131 replies to this topic

[Moonlander]

Adiuvo, on 17 November 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

The best part about this is that I didn't even insult you at all.

You're absolutely correct. You said I was jealous for whatever reason and then somehow confirmed my jealousy... which I might add, I'm still trying to find what I'm jealous of.

You don't need strategy to win most matches in this game. All you need to do is have someone call targets and stick together. Heat is about the most difficult (yeah, I know right... hilarious) thing you have to maintain in order to push out damage. And well... is there anything I'm missing? Oh yeah, ECM. Check.

You should know better than anyone, that you guys are toxic. People are a direct reflection of the environment they play in. Isn't being l33tsauce420blazeitswag the cool thing to do? It's like the battlecry, of the super competitive, right? Wrong...

I may or may not have thrown out a blanket generalization of every "competitive" team in MWO and I will apologize for that. I know some of those units are not tools. In my experience though, I haven't met anyone from HoL, for example, that was remotely friendly or helpful, yet quick to call someone horrible or verbally abuse people in pug matches, constantly.

That's the one thing I'll never understand about "competitive" players. Never once has anyone in my 5v ever called each other any sort of name nor have we ever be horrible to people in pug RBGs etc. Then, when you assume I was jealous of whatever it is I'm supposed to be jealous of. Oooh, I must be jealous of the horrible public image you guys have and for being known as jerks to a playerbase that people want to add to. Personally, you can call me whatever helps you sleep at night... but that's not the case for new players.

[TygerLily]

Rezn876, on 17 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

I feel alot of the BT video games fall very short of what "true" BT is because its not made for real time per se....but for now i beleive MWO has taken the IP the furthest in all ways compared to the past.

Agreed and that's why I think there is much lore that SHOULD be dropped for gameplay. And alternatively, there is even some gamplay that SHOULD be dropped for lore. But's it's a false dichotomy that it has to be either/or in our current state. For example, hiboxes...some are cooler looking (lore) than they are fuctional (gameplay)...the quirks balance seems good (as in the case of Awesomes). Etc.

Edited by TygerLily, 18 November 2014 - 12:03 AM.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

TygerLily, on 18 November 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Agreed and that's why I think there is much lore that SHOULD be dropped for gameplay. And alternatively, there is even some gamplay that SHOULD be dropped for lore. But's it's a false dichotomy that it has to be either/or in our current state. For example, hiboxes...some are cooler looking (lore) than they are fuctional (gameplay)...the quirks balance seems good (as in the case of Awesomes). Etc.

Are you for or against the hitboxes being loreish based? It seems like a tough call

[TygerLily]

Rezn876, on 18 November 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

Are you for or against the hitboxes being loreish based? It seems like a tough call

I'm all for lore-based models with quirks or whatever to make up for where they are lacking. Super tweaked to perfection (via breaking canon all to hell) for Solaris mode and passable tweaks to "casual" mode.

[Kain Demos]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 17 November 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

Jesus christ no.

[TygerLily]

Thunder Child, on 17 November 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

And Jakob, just want to call you out on the whole Assault versus Light thing. Because that is entirely situational. Panther versus Atlas, Atlas is most likely to win, due to the Panthers low speed. Jenner versus Atlas, completely different kettle of fish. Unless the Jenner makes a poor play, he has the speed to almost NEVER be hit. Sure, if he does get hit, he's likely to be smoked, but only IF.

Even a Fast Medium can tangle with a solo Assault, if that Assault is built for engaging heavy targets.

Jakob Knight, on 17 November 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

The point is, if MWO were what it should have always been, that Jenner should also die almost every time unless it is the -Atlas- that makes a very poor play. That the Jenner can reasonably come out on top in a direct fight is the result of the devs not wanting the Atlas to have the ability to kill the Jenner in one shot as it was supposed to be (go back and fight the battle in the original material. A single AC/20 hit was doom for a Jenner). And, with the average capabilities of both mechs, that hit was a better than even chance of happening whenever the Jenner got into range to use it's own weapons.

This was done in MWO in the name of 'fairness' so Light mech pilots -could- take on Assault mechs on even terms. Something that no Light mech pilot in Battletech would have even attempted with a competent pilot in charge of the Assault mech.

Ida know, my Jenner in TT moving 11 spaces (+4), medium range for ML (+1), called shot on the legs (+2) Plus you ran (+2), Elite gunnery skill: 2.

Ignoring all terrain, smoke, etc. you need 11 on two D6...5.56% chance of hitting.

Your Assault moving 5 spaces (+2), medium range ML (+1) called shot (+2), I ran (+2), and my elite gunnery skill is 2: I need 9: 11.11% chance to hit. My chance to hit is double yours!

Played right, I should do well. Played wrong, I'll take an AC/20 to the face. Seems in the spirit of the game to me!

Edited by TygerLily, 18 November 2014 - 12:21 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Moonlander, on 17 November 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I feel it would be good but with the type of vile and toxic playerbase we have, as Adiuvo has so clearly displayed for us...

As a bystander, I'd like you to know that your posts/attitude in this thread sound way more hostile and "toxic" that any of Adiuvos does. Bragging about your competitive performance in another game also makes you look bad/pathetic/jealous etc. If you are trying to prove Adiuvos points you are doing a good job so far.

As for the topic:

Yeah I'd like the game to have a sustainable and healthy competitive scene with big tournaments and other official events, with a playerbase large enough to support it.

Those painting a picture of "good wargame" as opposed to "esports" are making a false dichotomy.

Those painting a picture of balance being the same as lack of diversity or complexity are making a false equivalency.

Those are logical fallacies^

And finally those painting a picture of big stompy robots, wielding big weapons in a universe far far away imbued with stereotypical military vices and pseudochivalric concepts of honour straight out of the average teenage boys wet dreams of grandeur, as somehow "niche" or "hardcore" are just...well I don't know how to put this mildly...slightly confused about those terms and perhaps themselves. There is nothing more generic and average than believing you're special, everyone does.

Battletech is a fairly generic and uncomplicated concept catering to the masses, similar to other fantasy/scifi litterature and game concepts (like warhammer, warcraft etc) perfect for esports actually, but so far lacking in execution compared to those other more successful brands.

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 November 2014 - 12:37 AM.

[TygerLily]

Adiuvo, on 17 November 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

BTW all of you people who are saying that MWO never will have potential as an esport obviously paid no attention to MW4. Competitive play was massive in that game with multiple player made leagues. Their games were even broadcast on G4 back in the day...

Haha! Yes...

You have arrived.

Edited by TygerLily, 18 November 2014 - 12:40 AM.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

Sjorpha, on 18 November 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

Battletech is a fairly generic and uncomplicated concept catering to the masses, similar to other fantasy/scifi litterature and game concepts (like warhammer, warcraft etc) perfect for esports actually, but so far lacking in execution compared to those other more successful brands.

Very true and at the same time true of music. Simple things are more widely accepted. Things that are very simple can be viewed as lacking complexity but its ironic how complex simple things can be. like chess.

What would you say is one of the more obvious error in execution in terms of becoming a larger community?

[Lily from animove]

with how currently latency affects the game when europes and us gamers meet and the hitreg I doubt its going to be some serious esport thing.

it would require local battle servers trying to set up an competitve technical base first.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

Lily from animove, on 18 November 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

with how currently latency affects the game when europes and us gamers meet and the hitreg I doubt its going to be some serious esport thing.

it would require local battle servers trying to set up an competitve technical base first.

ah so maybe the logistics are more expensive then what can be done now. But maybe that can change? If the need for it becomes apparent perhaps it will be done. Seems like a great parallel to democracy in politics

[Moonlander]

Sjorpha, on 18 November 2014 - 12:34 AM, said:

As a bystander, I'd like you to know that your posts/attitude in this thread sound way more hostile and "toxic" that any of Adiuvos does. Bragging about your competitive performance in another game also makes you look bad/pathetic/jealous etc. If you are trying to prove Adiuvos points you are doing a good job so far.

It feels like this is a fanboy.

Sure, my tone was pointed when referring to the units in the competitive scene (not all, they know who they are) who are just absolute jerks to the solo queue folks, which are newer players. It just gets old when you never see them saying anything remotely friendly to new players. How can you grow a playerbase when people are ripped apart and embarassed in the solo queue?

The small piece of bragging I did do was not so much to toot my own horn, but more-so to prove that people can actually be recognized for their competitive gameplay on a global level, with large cash prizes and not treat others who may not be as good as them, like absolute garbage. If you think that makes me look bad/pathetic/jealous when well, that's your opinion. It was meant to reinforce the ideal that you don't need to be a jerk just because you're competitive. If I could dump the same amount of time into this game, that I do the other... I'm sure I could easily climb the make believe ladder we have here.

If we want a larger playerbase, we need people to be helpful in the solo queue. Offer a helping hand, friend them and do it personally or type "mechspecs.com" instead of calling them the array of colorful things people call new players that are less than perfect. People can't learn when they're being called names instead of being given advice. Who wants to stick around a game where they're constantly verbally abused.

If we want to be truly competitive, there needs to be penalties and our resources need to have real value so it has a negative impact when we lose them. Many weapons would need to fire and do damage according to lore. Nothing about this now has an eSports level of competitiveness. Deathball, while target calling under ECM. Win.

Edited by Moonlander, 18 November 2014 - 01:37 AM.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

Moonlander, on 18 November 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

It feels like this is a fanboy.

Sure, my tone was pointed when referring to the units in the competitive scene who are just absolute jerks to the solo queue folks, which are newer players. It just gets old when you never see them saying anything remotely friendly to new players. How can you grow a playerbase when people are ripped apart and embarassed in the solo queue?

The small piece of bragging I did do was not so much to toot my own horn, but more-so to prove that people can actually be recognized for their competitive gameplay on a global level, with large cash prizes and not treat others who may not be as good as them, like absolute garbage. If you think that makes me look bad/pathetic/jealous when well, that's your opinion. It was meant to reinforce the ideal that you don't need to be a jerk just because you're competitive. If I could dump the same amount of time into this game, that I do the other... I'm sure I could easily climb the make believe ladder we have here.

If we want a larger playerbase, we need people to be helpful in the solo queue. Offer a helping hand, friend them and do it personally or type "mechspecs.com" instead of calling them the array of colorful things people call new players that are less than perfect. People can't learn when they're being called names instead of being given advice. Who wants to stick around a game where they're constantly verbally abused.

If we want to be truly competitive, there needs to be penalties and our resources need to have real value so it has a negative impact when we lose them. Many weapons would need to fire and do damage according to lore. Nothing about this now has an eSports level of competitiveness. Deathball, while target calling under ECM. Win.

If your a new player maybe you should reserve judgement of what it takes to win or play or whatever your goal may be. it took me a few moths to get into a level where i wasnt a complete liability to my team. As a player with competitive experience online, i can assume youve encountered rudeness before. Either way its unfortunate, but also try not to take it like a personal attack. This game is like working in a fast paced kitchen. If your new, its gonna suck, your gonna be called names, youll make mistakes you arent even aware of, its just part of being in a close nit, high pressure community. This games focus on teamwork requires more then personal skill. You need to suck up your ego and become one with the moment or die alone

[Vassago Rain]

lol no.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

Vassago Rain, on 18 November 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

lol no.

Is there anything we missed so far?

[Adiuvo]

Moonlander, on 18 November 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

It feels like this is a fanboy.

Sure, my tone was pointed when referring to the units in the competitive scene (not all, they know who they are) who are just absolute jerks to the solo queue folks, which are newer players. It just gets old when you never see them saying anything remotely friendly to new players. How can you grow a playerbase when people are ripped apart and embarassed in the solo queue?

The small piece of bragging I did do was not so much to toot my own horn, but more-so to prove that people can actually be recognized for their competitive gameplay on a global level, with large cash prizes and not treat others who may not be as good as them, like absolute garbage. If you think that makes me look bad/pathetic/jealous when well, that's your opinion. It was meant to reinforce the ideal that you don't need to be a jerk just because you're competitive. If I could dump the same amount of time into this game, that I do the other... I'm sure I could easily climb the make believe ladder we have here.

If we want a larger playerbase, we need people to be helpful in the solo queue. Offer a helping hand, friend them and do it personally or type "mechspecs.com" instead of calling them the array of colorful things people call new players that are less than perfect. People can't learn when they're being called names instead of being given advice. Who wants to stick around a game where they're constantly verbally abused.

If we want to be truly competitive, there needs to be penalties and our resources need to have real value so it has a negative impact when we lose them. Many weapons would need to fire and do damage according to lore. Nothing about this now has an eSports level of competitiveness. Deathball, while target calling under ECM. Win.

If you want some help and advice from HoL specifically, tune in here.

www.twitch.tv/prtn_spz
www.twitch.tv/deltaspectra
www.twitch.tv/krivvan
www.twitch.tv/mfmadiuvo
www.twitch.tv/ggclosemwo

Also every Sunday at 7pmEST Heimdelight hosts the 'Church of Skill' where he drops with groups filled with new players and gives them advice on playing the game. Feel free to come

As for your ideas as to what it takes to win... that's not how the game is played competitively. Deathballing will just get your team picked apart from multiple angles and ECM is not needed whatsoever.

Edited by Adiuvo, 18 November 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[RockmachinE]

All the "meh" sayers are ignorant. I think it does have the theoretical potential to be, but it will never become that. First thing you need for esports is brutal consistency, 100% reliability and flawless code. It has neither and its not going in this direction. Its too sloppy in this department and I won't even mention gameplay, balance etc.

In a perfect world, a game akin to MWO could easily be an esport.

[RockmachinE]

TygerLily, on 18 November 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

Haha! Yes...

You have arrived.

This was spectacularly fun to watch baring the cheesy comments from the hosts.

[Elizander]

Rezn876, on 17 November 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

I feel the level of competitiveness and teamwork involved in this game is akin to any other sport in general, be it online or not. Regardless of what is to come, or has been for this game, i think it deserves to be as large and well known as those other institutions. I believe that even the most cynical of players shares that hope. I see it most when someone is especially harsh. Why else pour so much emotion into it? Or money? Is a MWO following akin to say, Starcraft, your dream too? Or would you rather it be your niche?

You can't really have a 12 man e-sports team. That's too expensive to sponsor. If the competitive aspect of this game was 4v4 lance combat perhaps, but no sponsor in their right mind would fly 12 guys from around the world much less house them together in a gaming house and pay their salaries for any game right now.

[Moonlander]

Rezn876, on 18 November 2014 - 01:45 AM, said:

If your a new player maybe you should reserve judgement of what it takes to win or play or whatever your goal may be. it took me a few moths to get into a level where i wasnt a complete liability to my team. As a player with competitive experience online, i can assume youve encountered rudeness before. Either way its unfortunate, but also try not to take it like a personal attack. This game is like working in a fast paced kitchen. If your new, its gonna suck, your gonna be called names, youll make mistakes you arent even aware of, its just part of being in a close nit, high pressure community. This games focus on teamwork requires more then personal skill. You need to suck up your ego and become one with the moment or die alone

Personally, it doesn't bother me and rarely even happens to me since I'm usually trying to guide the team and/or "carrying" (I really don't like using that word, just don't know how else to say it) and that's from a somewhat new player who does have experience and understand what it would take to hopefully win. I do wish the solo queue was more enjoyable. It does bother me when it happens to other players. But, if we want new players to stick around, don't we need to be friendly towards them? Helpful? Or should they just deal with it? We have to be held responsible if we're the ones limiting our playerbase because how new people are treated.

EDIT:

If I could devote more time to this game, I would. Not only to better myself but even to just understand the game enough to help others. When I came into this, I wasn't sure how well they translated TT into this, since I was more familiar with TT and Battletech: Solaris. I should really add that it's also the effort of the new player as well. I would assume anyone coming into a game like this should know the basics of teamplay, understand mechanics in general and how they affect gameplay and the BT/MW universe. How receptive are the new players to advice as well? The more I think about it... the more it goes both ways. Someone like me coming into a new game, I know to Google or check popular websites to see different builds and how people are using their character and class (in this case mech/role) to their full potential.

Edited by Moonlander, 18 November 2014 - 03:28 AM.