94 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

And a single 500lb bomb would destroy pretty much every single mech in existence with a near miss, given that they took out Tigers, KV1s, IS-2s, Fireflys, etc.

God forbid you get yourself a 1941 Focke Wulf and a 1000KG bomb.

For 29.95 Cbills, you can destroy an Atlas.

[KraftySOT]

Willard Phule, on 18 November 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Right, but if the best tracking system you had available to you could only lock targets at 1000m and closer, you'd tend to build your missiles to work under those conditions. Making a missile with a 5000m range but a tracking system that's only good for 1000m would be irresponsible.

Keep in mind, the tracking system used on anything like a Sidewinder is "losttech." That's why SRMs are "dumbfire."

Oh of course of course.

But thats the crux of missile development. What do you want a missile to do. You have to consider the role, consider what its being loaded onto. Size, weight, and effectiveness in the situation given.

Given that sensors in mechs dont seem to go much farther than 1000m, it would stand to reason developing a missile that can go any farther is a waste of time. It then becomes about packing tracking, and warhead into a frame that fulfills the role you want, that fits into the thing you want to fit it into.

The Arrow IV I think can go 10 map sheets, which is roughly 8 times farther than an LRM. Of course, its also 8 times the size. So you dont get many reloads, and the launcher is huge and weighs aplenty. Its also less accurate because wth size and weight, it loses agility.

Theres a 4x game called Aurora, that has a SUPERB missile design system. You can play around with that thing for hours seeing all the interdepencies.

[KraftySOT]

And of course the faster you go, the less agile you can be, as your turn radius increases.

Its all a trade off. You have to assume that the manufacturers in the Btech universe know this, and the LRM is the best fit.

[kf envy]

Fut, on 18 November 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

What about futuristic fuels that weigh less than conventional fuels used today?

an what about the futuristic rocket motors.

if i recall not to long ago the USAF tested n plasma rocket an it went to fast it ripped the metal skin off the test rocket before destroying it self with its speed

then there also the nuclear rocket motors that have an supper long burn time Vs there chem rockets motors with the same weight of fuel

Edited by kf envy, 18 November 2014 - 12:57 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

well how about this,

Andi Nagasia, on 17 November 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

question about LRMs,
are they really that bad?

Example
2LRM20(2Ammo), possible damage= 35-40*(9 shots), weight= 12, time to target= 500m:5secs,
is the path to the Enemy clear? Check, is the Sky above the Enemy clear? Check,
have i Prayed to LRM gods that Enemy doesn't go under cover or that i lose Lock? Check, OK Fire!
*not all your missiles will hit even on a stationary target, any LRM boater will tell you that,
vs
3ERLL, possible damage= 33, weight= 12, time to target= 500m:1.2-1.5secs(full beam),
is the path to the Enemy clear? Check, OK Fire!

Enemy, 5 seconds before LRM Impact, (B****ing Betty)= Incoming missile!
well its time to get on the Nope Train to get the F*** out of here Vill,
vs
Enemy, 1.6 seconds before ERLL Impact, (B****ing Betty)= ... right arm critical!
WHAT!? where why? looks around, sees blue and hides,

so are LRMs really that bad?
ya you dont need skill to use them, but,...

i was once in a LCT and i was Narked,....
LRM-AGADDON, o i was also under a bridge,...LOL,...

Me in another LRM Topic

Also Check out my Feature Suggestion Topic
(Lrm, Liberation Radar Munitions! Over / Under Powered?)
Please Post your Thoughts Thanks,

[IceSerpent]

KraftySOT, on 18 November 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

Theres no such thing. Liquids generally all weigh almost exactly the same.

You don't say? Almost exactly the same, huh?

[kf envy]

KraftySOT, on 18 November 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

And Wifi speed is constant.

You wont get more efficient wireless transmission. Ever. Unfortunately.



Well remember the game was made by people really interested in "future tech" in the 1980s. So most stuff is based on what was "around the corner" in 1988, thus, things coming in the 90s and early 2000s. They had no idea 3d printing would be a thing (and it really isnt as earth shattering as people say it is)

Also written into the timeline, is a huge back slide in technology, to the point where in 3025, you have the same technological level as the 1980s, but also have these futuristic war machines no one knows how to fix.

As the game and lore expanded in the 90s, they added the clans, and had a huge "reawakening" of technology, which really kinds of puts the brakes on the dystopian future thing they were going for.

So in many cases, fans who disagree, can both be right.

There IS a time in MW where technology is actually BEHIND 2014 technology, but then 25 years later, its blowing that technology out of the water.

AMS and Metal Storm are the same thing. Thats the rationale of the people who were at FASA. They were all military and history buffs and brainstormed this stuff up based on things that were probably technological innovations, without getting TOO science fictiony.

I mean...they used LITHIUM batteries on their Jump Ships.

That was a hot new item in 1989.

Now I have one in my cellphone. Who gives a crap.

And if we want to go there...we know now that a PPC will never work, lasers wont work, gauss rifles dont seem to follow the curvature of a planet thus making them mostly useless (THANKS US NAVY!) missiles and rockets are easily defeated...etc..

MW is just a fun game. Its not supposed to be taken THAT seriously or it all starts to fall apart. You have to cut off the real world unfortunately for alot of stuff to make sense.

I mean...the way physics works...if you dont penetrate armor, you didnt do anything to it. All the AC/2s in the world would never actually damage a mech, if its not penetrating the armor.

It would be like the 37mm atgs bouncing off french tanks in the Battle of France.

not to sure about your AC/2 statement see how today we have some really mind blowing small cal cannon rounds and the many different warheads that can be put on them heck there even an 20mm rifle round that is able to kill modern MBT's so im sure with in the BT time line they have ac/2 standard round that our able to give an Mech or MBT an bad day.
now about PPC they wont work with in atmosphere but with in an vacuum of space its an little different story. an if lasers dont work why have them for point defense to shot down incoming missiles? or an air to ground attach Ver that can burn holes in tanks. buildings making them unusable sure there really big ATM but most of it is to power the laser an ATM we do have fusion reactors right around the corner so to speak. because ATM its an little dangers to have an nuclear reactor get an hole in we all know fallout is not an good thing. an becaue how guass acts its an line of sight weapon an thats somthing that can be fixed with fire conroll software

oh with reactive armor you dont need to penetrat it you the 1st time you hit it. you just need to make it go off so there just some thin metal to punch throw after that.

an remember were playing in the BT time line ware they have hyperpules generators

Edited by kf envy, 18 November 2014 - 01:35 PM.

[Sprouticus]

Cowboyboots, on 17 November 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Either change the name to Long Range Mortars or change the angle of attack to vaguely resemble how missiles should behave. There is no reason steep cover should not be effective against missiles, besides pandering to bad players. This would solve many of the complaints against LRMs without resorting to altering their damage.

Post a picture of your AMS stats with 50-100 games played and we can talk....until then you are a troll.

[Artgathan]

Willard Phule, on 18 November 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Keep in mind, the tracking system used on anything like a Sidewinder is "losttech." That's why SRMs are "dumbfire."

SRMs aren't actually dumbfire in BT. They have limited guidance systems (which is why things like TAG and Narc give to-hit bonuses to them). Streak-SRMs are not SRMs with guidance systems - they're SRMs with prediction systems. If the SSRM predicts it will miss, it doesn't let the pilot fire - it's an ammunition conservation system.

MRMs on the other hand are dumbfire.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 18 November 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

An remember - the LRM is SUPPOSED A support weapon, not primary

And in case you didnt catch this part, making it LOS only would make it into a primary weapon not a secondary one.

DEMAX51, on 18 November 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

I just don't understand how some people have problems using buildings and hills as cover from LRMs. Cover seems to work just fine for me, and I highly doubt the missiles fired at me have a generally-different trajectory than the missiles fired at the OP.

The only causes I can think of regarding this "issue" are:

- The OP is not using "very high" cover like they think they are.
- The OP is using "very high" cover, but isn't standing close enough to the cover, which allows the missiles to still come in over it.
- The OP is massively exaggerating.

I would guess it's probably a combination of the three.

It usually is with lrm whiners

Theres usually a 4th option: Theyve never used the weapon theyre complaining about

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 18 November 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

BasicInfantry, on 18 November 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I'm guessing you people never saw a Javelin fired.. it comes out... heads up and drops straight down on a target...



If a shoulder fired missle can do this, why couldn't they do it on big stompy futuristic robots?

Because :pgi: or mainly because :Whining on forums: Because they USED to track in at near 90 degrees.

[Willard Phule]

KraftySOT, on 18 November 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Oh of course of course.

But thats the crux of missile development. What do you want a missile to do. You have to consider the role, consider what its being loaded onto. Size, weight, and effectiveness in the situation given.

Given that sensors in mechs dont seem to go much farther than 1000m, it would stand to reason developing a missile that can go any farther is a waste of time. It then becomes about packing tracking, and warhead into a frame that fulfills the role you want, that fits into the thing you want to fit it into.

The Arrow IV I think can go 10 map sheets, which is roughly 8 times farther than an LRM. Of course, its also 8 times the size. So you dont get many reloads, and the launcher is huge and weighs aplenty. Its also less accurate because wth size and weight, it loses agility.

Theres a 4x game called Aurora, that has a SUPERB missile design system. You can play around with that thing for hours seeing all the interdepencies.

True enough, but keep in mind that unless it's a TAG designated Arrow IV, the "to hit" roll can be kind of rough....depending on range to target and counterbattery fire. Granted, the "splash" rules really favor artillery and airstrikes....missing isn't usually all that bad, as long as you're using cluster rounds.

The TAG one, though, is pretty devastating. To be honest, I couldn't tell you what the official book rules are. I've used a common variation "house rule" for so long, it's irrelevant. If the round hits, it does whatever damage it's supposed to (Arrow IV, Long Tom, Sniper, Thumper) AND it does area of effect damage to the hexes surrounding the one the target is standing it. It's BRUTAL against tanks and infantry.

Artgathan, on 18 November 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

SRMs aren't actually dumbfire in BT. They have limited guidance systems (which is why things like TAG and Narc give to-hit bonuses to them). Streak-SRMs are not SRMs with guidance systems - they're SRMs with prediction systems. If the SSRM predicts it will miss, it doesn't let the pilot fire - it's an ammunition conservation system.

MRMs on the other hand are dumbfire.

Exactly. And SSRMs CAN be fired like regular SRMs by overriding the system. That's why Streak LRMs that come along later are so awesome.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Just a note:

- Reference the streaks, they are not 'prediction' missiles.
(they don't decide if they can hit the target, just if they can establish a lock on it.)

There systems are designed to all establish a lock on the target or they will not fire.
~ If they all get lock, they will fire. No group lock and it's a no-go for the system to fire.

(now hitting the target, this is not part of there target locking system as the target could move behind any available cover once they are launched. But normally the ranges are very short, so not much chance of that.)
~ You are correct in that this mechanism was specifically designed to conserve ammo, and stop the hit and miss group firings of standard SRM's.

9erRed

[RazorbeastFXK3]

Turning LRM launchers into Glitter Cannons would be a good reason for me to stop playing Mechwarrior altogether. It'd turn into another version of that sparkling vampire story crap.

SaltBeef, on 18 November 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Keep whining I am sure the Devs will turn the mean LRMS into fairy gumdrop sprinkles for you!

[RazorbeastFXK3]

This looks longer than nine feet if we were to go by this image. http://static.old-ga...8565c71991d.jpg

Hell.. in the background image of the mwomercs forums the missiles look to be about ten feet long.

KraftySOT, on 18 November 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Air to air missiles for example, have a few mile range (up to 22 for the sidewinder), but, has a smaller explosive charge than an ATGM (at around 9.4kgs) and weighs considerable more (188 lbs) of that almost 60 lbs is fuel.

http://en.wikipedia....IM-9_Sidewinder

Its also 9 feet long, a good 4 feet longer than an LRM.

An LRM isnt a very potent weapon.

Think Katayusha, but with the same guidance as a Hellfire. Which only has a 10-20m accuracy.

[Kiryuin Ragyo]

Just bring back pre-nerfed ECM and make it avaliable to mount on any mech. Problem solved.

[Christof Romulus]

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.sarna.net...g_Range_Missile

First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.

Edited by Christof Romulus, 18 November 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

9erRed, on 18 November 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Greetings all,

Just a note:

- Reference the streaks, they are not 'prediction' missiles.
(they don't decide if they can hit the target, just if they can establish a lock on it.)

There systems are designed to all establish a lock on the target or they will not fire.
~ If they all get lock, they will fire. No group lock and it's a no-go for the system to fire.

(now hitting the target, this is not part of there target locking system as the target could move behind any available cover once they are launched. But normally the ranges are very short, so not much chance of that.)
~ You are correct in that this mechanism was specifically designed to conserve ammo, and stop the hit and miss group firings of standard SRM's.

9erRed

So youre saying we should get Streak LRMs?

I dont think ppl want that

[Kilo 40]

IceSerpent, on 18 November 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Missile changes directions or altitude by pointing its nose in that direction. So yes, it only goes forward. I haven't heard of anybody using missiles with some sort of maneuvering thrusters that allow for sideways motion.

Yes. That's exactly what I meant. Missiles move at 90 degree angles and have sideways motion. Exactly what I meant.

*facepalm*

[IceSerpent]

Kilo 40, on 18 November 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Yes. That's exactly what I meant. Missiles move at 90 degree angles and have sideways motion. Exactly what I meant.

*facepalm*

We have no idea what you wanted to say, but you said "only go forward", which means movement in the direction from aft to fore of the vehicle (missile in this case). If you meant something else, you should've actually said whatever you meant.