74 replies to this topic

[Abivard]

Just what happens when two stalkers, one armed with pair of LRM20's w/ 4 ML ( STK-3H) the other with 4 large lasers (STK-4N) come face to face at 500M.

we will say both are equally skilled stalker pilots with good ping, good fps and good reflexes. It is a flat open area with no cover of any kind.

Both stalkers move reticles over opfor mech,

laser mech fires then accelerates towards LRM mech, LRM mech targets and begins lock sequence. LRM mech starts backing up, If LRM mech torso twists lock sequence will reset, so LRM mech does not torso twist.

Laser mech targets opfor
.
LRM LOCK achieved, Laser mech alphas second time, LRM mech able to make slight torso shake.

LRM mech fires LRM's, time passed 3 seconds, current range about 475M, flight time 3 seconds.

Laser mech fires third alpha, closes an additional 20 m , range now 455M LRM's impact. Laser mech violently torso twists spreading damage, AMS accounts for 20% of lrm volley.

LRM mech fires Med lasers (they should have anywhere from 1 to 4 ML) Range dictates lasers do less than 4 damage per laser. Laser mech violently torso twists spreading damage.

Laser mech fires 4th Alpha, LRM able to slightly torso twist. less than 10 seconds have now elapsed.

LRM mech fires second volley, time to target slightly over two seconds as the range continues to close.

Laser mech fires fifth alpha, LRM mech should be dead or close to it at this point.

LRM's impact, range now at 400M, LRM mech fires ML second time, Laser mech torso twists spreading damage.

Laser mech fires Sixth alpha

If still alive LRM mech fires third volley one second after that, time to target 2 seconds.also fires ML, range at impact about 380M still outside ML normal range.

Laser mech torso twists spreading laser damage

Laser mech fires seventh alpha, Laser mechs AMS accounts for 20% of lrm volley, Laser mech torso twists spreading remaining LRM damage.

If still alive which would be a miracle of the highest possible order, the LRM mech fires Mlasers for fourth time 1 second after the Last LRM impact.

1 second later the LRM mech fires fourth LRM volley, still slightly over 2 second flight time.

.5 seconds later the Laser mech fires it's EIGHTH alpha, total damage laser mech has inflicted so far, 288

LRM s hit, minus 20% due to AMS

Less than a second after lrm impact both Laser mech and LRM mech exchange laser fire, LRM mech is most definitely dead, Laser mech at perhaps 80%

LRM inflicted damage, about 140 total, spread across all areas of target. + Mlaser damage of about 60 = 200 total damage.

Laser mech total damage = 324, all of which should be torso hits.

Elapsed time: about 21 seconds or so. final range, about 350M.

The terrain strongly favored the LRM mech.

Conclusion, Direct fired LRM's are vastly inferior to lasers let alone ballistic or PPC armed mechs.


p.s. edited to correct some time errors.

Edited by Abivard, 18 November 2014 - 01:33 AM.

[The Boz]

The LRM Stalker uses 2xLRM20 instead of 4xLRM10. The LRM Stalker uses 4xML instead of 4xMPL.

But still, indirect fire spread damage weapon loses out in a confrontation against a direct fire pinpoint weapon? Working as intended.

[GreyNovember]

Not sure if an in match experience, or a hypothetical scenario.

[Lily from animove]

actually, the whole toitle cna be changed into:

what happens if pinpoint damage meets spread damage.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 November 2014 - 01:15 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

The LRM Stalker uses 2xLRM20 instead of 4xLRM10. The LRM Stalker uses 4xML instead of 4xMPL.

But still, indirect fire spread damage weapon loses out in a confrontation against a direct fire pinpoint weapon? Working as intended.

I think his point is aimed at all the people who cry 'go and get in line of sight, get your own locks' - because if you are not heavily utilising indirect fire (i dont mean at 1000m and i dont mean all the time), you should have brought different weapons

[CocoaJin]

I have no real side in this debate...but just to fair, didn't you sort of bias your outcome by having them start their engagement set 500m? It seems to totally ignore the what, 700m of the Laser Stalker's approach at the mind knumbing speed of an assault. It would seem many maps would give the LRM Stalker ample opportunity to force an approach by the enemy that would leave it open for lock and the subsequent LRM salvos prior to the a Laser Stalker getting into its effective range.

At least use the average of the two effective ranges for the example.

[The Boz]

Would this be a good LRM Stalker for this test?
I've no idea what to put in the 4N that doesn't either give me SRM splats or loads of free tonnage. This comes from the amount of "4xLL alpha" mentioned in the text. Because firing four overghostheating weapons is always a good idea.

[Widowmaker1981]

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

Would this be a good LRM Stalker for this test?
I've no idea what to put in the 4N that doesn't either give me SRM splats or loads of free tonnage. This comes from the amount of "4xLL alpha" mentioned in the text. Because firing four overghostheating weapons is always a good idea.

I run a Banshee 3M with 4x LPL and it can alpha 4 times back to back with CD module installed on a heat neutral map. The stalker 4N has better heat reduction buffs than the Banshee, so yes, it can alpha those 4xLLs probably 5 or 6 times before overheating. Im thinking about building a 6xLL 4N and firing in groups of 3...

[SerratedBlaze]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 November 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

I think his point is aimed at all the people who cry 'go and get in line of sight, get your own locks' - because if you are not heavily utilising indirect fire (i dont mean at 1000m and i dont mean all the time), you should have brought different weapons

Agreeed. I use a 2x15 lrmA 2xerll tag C1 and love getting my own spots and being independent, but lrm+arty is vastly inferior to fast velocity, converging weapons when facing each other.
Also if not twisting there would be no relock time, and bay doors?

Edited by SerratedBlaze, 18 November 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[Abivard]

CocoaJin, on 18 November 2014 - 01:20 AM, said:

I have no real side in this debate...but just to fair, didn't you sort of bias your outcome by having them start their engagement set 500m? It seems to totally ignore the what, 700m of the Laser Stalker's approach at the mind knumbing speed of an assault. It would seem many maps would give the LRM Stalker ample opportunity to force an approach by the enemy that would leave it open for lock and the subsequent LRM salvos prior to the a Laser Stalker getting into its effective range.

At least use the average of the two effective ranges for the example.

Actually at greater ranges the LRM stalker would do LESS damage, the flight times would need an extra 2 seconds, the Mlasers would NEVER be in even extreme range.

Eonai, on 18 November 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Not sure if an in match experience, or a hypothetical scenario.

Hypothetical but based on known facts, using recharge times, ranges and damages, speeds etc...plus the best stalker variant for each loadout taking quirks into consideration.

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 01:29 AM, said:

Would this be a good LRM Stalker for this test?
I've no idea what to put in the 4N that doesn't either give me SRM splats or loads of free tonnage. This comes from the amount of "4xLL alpha" mentioned in the text. Because firing four overghostheating weapons is always a good idea.

Please refer to these links for quirks.

https://static.mwome...re%20Quirks.pdf

https://docs.google....SQeQ/edit#gid=0

[Kmieciu]

Every direct fire weapon is better than LRMs.

That's why competitive teams never use them.

[Abivard]

Lily from animove, on 18 November 2014 - 01:14 AM, said:

actually, the whole toitle cna be changed into:

what happens if pinpoint damage meets spread damage.

Except there isn't a single Pinpoint damage weapon involved in this!

If there were, say a misery with a Gauss and pair of ERPPC's instead of the 4 large laser quirked stalker 4N it would have been over by the third or at most fourth PPFLD alpha.

or in other words the LRM mech would have been dead in half the time. even though the laser alpha is 36 points and the other 35 points.

[Widowmaker1981]

Abivard, on 18 November 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

Except there isn't a single Pinpoint damage weapon involved in this!

If there were, say a misery with a Gauss and pair of ERPPC's instead of the 4 large laser quirked stalker 4N it would have been over by the third or at most fourth PPFLD alpha.

or in other words the LRM mech would have been dead in half the time. even though the laser alpha is 36 points and the other 35 points.

Well, technically lasers ARE pinpoint, they are just not front loaded.

Lasers - PP, not FLD
PPCs - PPFLD
SRMS - FLD, not PP

[The Boz]

Abivard, on 18 November 2014 - 01:43 AM, said:

Please refer to these links for quirks.

https://static.mwome...re%20Quirks.pdf

10% LRM20 cooldown and heat generation does not make it more attractive than two LRM10s. Not even close.

[EvilCow]

It is not how it goes.

Laser Stalker fires the weapons and starts advancing.
Missile stalker acquires lock and all the other missile boats in 1km radius too.
Laser Stalker disintegrates.

[Strong Female Role Model]

STK-3H

STK-4N

This is probably where you want to be with your respective Stalker LL and LRM boats.

Widowmaker1981, on 18 November 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

Im thinking about building a 6xLL 4N and firing in groups of 3...

Stick with 4 LL. You can fire almost nonstop for minutes on end.

Edited by Strong Female Role Model, 18 November 2014 - 02:41 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

EvilCow, on 18 November 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

It is not how it goes.

Laser Stalker fires the weapons and starts advancing.
Missile stalker acquires lock and all the other missile boats in 1km radius too.
Laser Stalker disintegrates.

Actually, no

Laser stalker alphas LRM stalker
LRM stalker aquires lock and fires
Laser stalker backs up behind cover
LRMs impact harmlessly on rock

Repeat until LRM mech changes position or dies

[Abivard]

EvilCow, on 18 November 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

It is not how it goes.

Laser Stalker fires the weapons and starts advancing.
Missile stalker acquires lock and all the other missile boats in 1km radius too.
Laser Stalker disintegrates.

How it would really happen is that the laser mech would advance under cover using fire and maneuver tactics, while the opfor LRM boats wasted volley after volley against terrain and lost locks till they were all destroyed without managing to kill anyone outside of the new guy who went out in the open and stood still ignoring all the LRMs.

But of course any mech that is the Target of massed focus fire dies fast, no matter the weapons used.

In any scenario in a drop with COMPETENT players, the LRM heavy side ALWAYS loses. that is competent not competitive players. You will rarely see any LRM's in competitive levels of play.

This scenario heavily favors the LRM mech and is not really a level playing field outside of both players in good stalker builds for the weapons and equal pilot skills.

[Lexx]

The Boz, on 18 November 2014 - 02:27 AM, said:

10% LRM20 cooldown and heat generation does not make it more attractive than two LRM10s. Not even close.

2 LRM 20s is much better than 4 LRM 10s, because you can fire them all in one salvo and if you put artemis on them it only adds 2 tons. Artemis is definitely worth it since it speeds up your lock-on time and tightens up the missile grouping.

I run this on my 3H

STK-3H

I prefer TAG to a 4th Medium Laser to speed up locks and light up ECM mechs. the BAP helps when ECM mechs get between 180 and 360 meters.



On the 4N I like putting all 4 Large Lasers on the arms since it keeps them up high and they can move up and down more.

STK-4N

As far as which mech wins 1v1 in the open I really hope it would be the laser mech.

[Remarius]

Strong Female Role Model, on 18 November 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

STK-3H

STK-4N

This is probably where you want to be with your respective Stalker LL and LRM boats.



Stick with 4 LL. You can fire almost nonstop for minutes on end.

This thread is full of so much made up information its untrue. *facepalm*

Widowmaker1981, on 18 November 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

Actually, no

Laser stalker alphas LRM stalker
LRM stalker aquires lock and fires
Laser stalker backs up behind cover
LRMs impact harmlessly on rock

Repeat until LRM mech changes position or dies

Wait one mech plays exactly as they should and the other doesn't? What a surprise... one does better!