99 replies to this topic

[Sirius Drake]

Scratx, on 19 November 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

This is funny.

You think the USD is backed by anything?

Or the Euro, or just about any fiat currency currently in circulation?


I'm not defending Bitcoin here, but if you really think those greenbacks in your hands can be redeemed for gold or anything else, really, you're dreaming. They're worth exactly how much other people are willing to give it value. Just like Bitcoin when it comes down to it. People believe it has value, so they trade it accordingly.

One of the fundamental differences between Bitcoin and the fiat currency central banks issue is that Bitcoin is limited to not having more than a set amount of bitcoins in existence in its entire lifespan. There is no such restriction for central bank issued fiat currency. I'm sure you can do the math on why people might like Bitcoin... just look up the Weimar Republic and its history.


And now I'm done with the subject. Have fun.

Ah, the Weimar Republic example.
It had to come.
I am sure you do know that normal currency is backed by the economy of the countrys.
The BitCoin is only backed by good will.
As soon as that is gone....when was the BC at 400 USD? Last Year?
And now its at 200? 50% "inflation" in one year. No too shabby.
Weimar Republic.

[Scratx]

Sirius Drake, on 19 November 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

Ah, the Weimar Republic example.
It had to come.
I am sure you do know that normal currency is backed by the economy of the countrys.
The BitCoin is only backed by good will.
As soon as that is gone....when was the BC at 400 USD? Last Year?
And now its at 200? 50% "inflation" in one year. No too shabby.
Weimar Republic.

I said I'm not defending Bitcoin, it has issues and I've avoided it.

But saying fiat currency is backed by the economy of a country is a way of saying it's backed by the ability to buy goods and services from it with said currency. It's still essentially tied to how much value people believe that currency has, because that determines how much you can buy with it.

[InspectorG]

Kilo 40, on 19 November 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

"I want bitcoin to die in a fire"

Libertarians love it because it pushes the same buttons as their gold fetish and it doesn't look like a "Fiat currency". You can visualize it as some kind of scarce precious data resource, sort of a digital equivalent of gold. Nation-states don't control the supply of it, so it promises to bypass central banks.

But there are a number of huge down-sides. Here's a link-farm to the high points:

Mining BtC has a carbon footprint from hell (as they get more computationally expensive to generate, electricity consumption soars). This essay has some questionable numbers, but the underlying principle is sound.

Bitcoin mining software is now being distributed as malware because using someone else's computer to mine BitCoins is easier than buying a farm of your own mining hardware.

Bitcoin violates Gresham's law: Stolen electricity will drive out honest mining. (So the greatest benefits accrue to the most ruthless criminals.)

Bitcoin's utter lack of regulation permits really hideous markets to emerge, in commodities like assassination (and drugs and child pornography).

It's also inherently damaging to the fabric of civil society. You think our wonderful investment bankers aren't paying their fair share of taxes? Bitcoin is pretty much designed for tax evasion. Moreover, The Gini coefficient of the Bitcoin economy is ghastly, and getting worse, to an extent that makes a sub-Saharan African kleptocracy look like a socialist utopia, and the "if this goes on" linear extrapolations imply that BtC will badly damage stable governance, not to mention redistributive taxation systems and social security/pension nets if its value continues to soar (as it seems designed to do due to its deflationary properties).


EDIT: for the love of god PGI...please make it so I can copy and paste something without the forum thinking I want to copy the color as well. This is the ONLY forum I've ever encountered with that issue.

Too early to tell, but Bitcoin WILL have some/most of those problems, but really, what currency doesnt?

Carbon footprint? Yeah but does it compare to a country trying to maintain its oil dominance using its military to choke other nations from alternative oil resources? how much 'carbon' do fiat dollars create when its creators use the world's biggest army to keep China from Africa and Russia from Europe/maybe even the Arctic?

Malware, yeah, same as counterfeit paper.

Stolen Electricity? Yeah. Im sure they do. But central banks rob EVERYONE with QE and use the carnage to buy assets with made up paper. Its not crime, if you are doing God's work...so some say.

Horrendous markets? How did people ever buy coke and slaves without Bitcoin?????

Tax evasion? Simple as this: if you pay taxes, you aint rich enough.

Stable governance...thats a good one. Social capital and community make good governance. Inflated bureaucracy is merely the result of nature taking its course. Sates come, States go. Technology speeds it up.

[Kilo 40]

InspectorG, on 19 November 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Too early to tell, but Bitcoin WILL have some/most of those problems, but really, what currency doesnt?

Carbon footprint? Yeah but does it compare to a country trying to maintain its oil dominance using its military to choke other nations from alternative oil resources? how much 'carbon' do fiat dollars create when its creators use the world's biggest army to keep China from Africa and Russia from Europe/maybe even the Arctic?

Malware, yeah, same as counterfeit paper.

Stolen Electricity? Yeah. Im sure they do. But central banks rob EVERYONE with QE and use the carnage to buy assets with made up paper. Its not crime, if you are doing God's work...so some say.

Horrendous markets? How did people ever buy coke and slaves without Bitcoin?????

Tax evasion? Simple as this: if you pay taxes, you aint rich enough.

Stable governance...thats a good one. Social capital and community make good governance. Inflated bureaucracy is merely the result of nature taking its course. Sates come, States go. Technology speeds it up.

[Sirius Drake]

Scratx, on 19 November 2014 - 11:22 PM, said:

I said I'm not defending Bitcoin, it has issues and I've avoided it.

But saying fiat currency is backed by the economy of a country is a way of saying it's backed by the ability to buy goods and services from it with said currency. It's still essentially tied to how much value people believe that currency has, because that determines how much you can buy with it.

Right, i am Sorry, you did, thats true.
That topic in itself is just luring me into an outrage over and over again.
And yes, that is true as well. But modern fiat currency isn't such a subject to speculation.
Of course it still is due to multiple reason but not like the BitCoin.

InspectorG, on 19 November 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Too early to tell, but Bitcoin WILL have some/most of those problems, but really, what currency doesnt?

Carbon footprint? Yeah but does it compare to a country trying to maintain its oil dominance using its military to choke other nations from alternative oil resources? how much 'carbon' do fiat dollars create when its creators use the world's biggest army to keep China from Africa and Russia from Europe/maybe even the Arctic?

Malware, yeah, same as counterfeit paper.

Stolen Electricity? Yeah. Im sure they do. But central banks rob EVERYONE with QE and use the carnage to buy assets with made up paper. Its not crime, if you are doing God's work...so some say.

Horrendous markets? How did people ever buy coke and slaves without Bitcoin?????

Tax evasion? Simple as this: if you pay taxes, you aint rich enough.

Stable governance...thats a good one. Social capital and community make good governance. Inflated bureaucracy is merely the result of nature taking its course. Sates come, States go. Technology speeds it up.

Okeeee.....
Time to go.

Edited by Sirius Drake, 19 November 2014 - 11:33 PM.

[Karl Marlow]

So how about them Mets?

[InspectorG]

Sirius Drake, on 19 November 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

I am sure you do know that normal currency is backed by the economy of the countrys.

So they say.

What happens if the Central banks decide to raise interest rates?
Lower them?
Increase money supply?
Lower supply?

Print GOBS of made up money(85 BILLION PER MONTH !!!! - where did this money come from? the 'Economy'?) just to hand it over to Wallstreet to gamble on rigged markets with High Frequency Trading to prop up a crashing economy????

If they manipulate it enough its more accurate to say Fiat is only worth the MANIPULATION, not the economy itself.

[Sirius Drake]

InspectorG, on 19 November 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

So they say.

What happens if the Central banks decide to raise interest rates?
Lower them?
Increase money supply?
Lower supply?

Print GOBS of made up money(85 BILLION PER MONTH !!!! - where did this money come from? the 'Economy'?) just to hand it over to Wallstreet to gamble on rigged markets with High Frequency Trading to prop up a crashing economy????

If they manipulate it enough its more accurate to say Fiat is only worth the MANIPULATION, not the economy itself.

Right. I am not saying fiat currency is perfect.
Let me tell you straight away what i think is the problem with BitCoin:
There are 3 different kind of people that are useing it.
1. people that speculate with it.
2. people that use it in the "darknet"(stupid Name)
3. people that want actually use it as currency.
I am sure you can guess which of the 3 groups is the by far most powerful.

[Karl Marlow]

Sirius Drake, on 19 November 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

Right. I am not saying fiat currency is perfect.
Let me tell you straight away what i think is the problem with BitCoin:
There are 3 different kind of people that are useing it.
1. people that speculate with it.
2. people that use it in the "darknet"(stupid Name)
3. people that want actually use it as currency.
I am sure you can guess which of the 3 groups is the by far most powerful.

[Sirius Drake]

ThomasMarik, on 19 November 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

Touché ^^

[Widowmaker1981]

Whatever anyone tells you, Bitcoin's primary use is as an easy to launder online currency for the purchasing of nefarious things, and the chances of it dying while prohibition is still a thing are negligable.

[QuantumButler]

ahahahahahaahhaahahahahahah

[Ash Rose]

Hello pubbie warriors of the hooman-kind. The proud and noble Tetatae come bearing good news for all those suffering under the yoke of fat currency. We are proud to announce, BIRDCOIN, a new currency that is free from the chains of 'being real' and 'having value' and 'being backed by government'. BIRDCOIN will revolutionize the way you buy and trade robots and robot-parts, to acquire BIRDCOIN simply find your nearest Bird-warrior and trade them 1 pound of birdseed for every coin you wish to acquire. Within 3-5 business months we will send you roughly the amount of BIRDCOIN you requested, which is for real monies and not pieces of bark with the phrase 'Robin Paul 3050' pecked into it's surface.

[Golden Vulf]

And now the thread has lost all legitimacy.

[Kilo 40]

Golden Vulf, on 20 November 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

And now the thread has lost all legitimacy.

did it ever have any in the first place?

[Sarlic]

Saturn7, on 19 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

After searching the forum and reading this post:
http://mwomercs.com/...-with-bitcoins/

I see some people are/were hostile towards Bitcoin.

However things have changed since this discussion was posted.

If PGI used Bitpay or Coinbase as a processor they won't ever have to touch bitcoins, they get USD directly in their account with no worries about exchange rate. Plus it would cost 0% in transaction fees.

Bitpay announced today they are processing $1 Million in payments per day.
https://twitter.com/...066347060080640

Over 21,000 retailers accept Bitcoin:
http://mashable.com/...rs-infographic/

And HP Survey: 79% of US Organisations Plan to Adopt Digital Currencies:
http://www.coindesk....tal-currencies/

You do know that Bitcoin is mostly used in crimincal circuit? One address is split in multiple adresssen across oversea. Most common used tactic.

Like ransomware:
Cryptolocker,
Bitlockers

People need to pay with bitcoin in order to unlock their crypted files..

Or any other good roque software who used bitcoin only as payment.

I say no to this filthy coin.

It's dirty.

Edited by Sarlic, 20 November 2014 - 03:56 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kanatta Jing, on 19 November 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Think of bitcoins as a currency that isn't backed by any nation or bank...

Or like a stock that isn't backed by a company.

Or a bond that isn't backed by a debt.

To an Old timer like me they sound worthless. Some of the Law got into them... Personally, I'm not convinced.

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 November 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

To an Old timer like me they sound worthless. Some of the Law got into them... Personally, I'm not convinced.

i REALLY wish id got into them when they first appeared, know some people who made 1000s from a couple of pounds investment. Too late now though, i only get what i need and spend em instantly before they have time to fluctuate.

[Logan Hawke]

*puts on tinfoil hat*

The government man, they're trying to control all of us. They're owned by the banks and people just let them own them. But not me man! I'm independent and smart so I use Bitcoin! The government doesn't own it so it's automatically better! Sure it has value, maybe not for sheeple like you or in any country on this planet, but for smart people like me it does!

WAKE UP SHEEPLE, BUY BITCOIN!

Edited by Logan Hawke, 20 November 2014 - 05:56 AM.

[Sarlic]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 November 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

i REALLY wish id got into them when they first appeared, know some people who made 1000s from a couple of pounds investment. Too late now though, i only get what i need and spend em instantly before they have time to fluctuate.

It's a air bubble...

There is too much criminals involved in that system.

Edited by Sarlic, 20 November 2014 - 06:17 AM.