45 replies to this topic

[Phex]

Viktor Drake, on 19 November 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

I agree with the OP. I actually liked it when mechs screened by ECM didn't automatically show up on the screen and we actually had to use skill to actually scan the terrain for movement to find enemies then use a little more skill to use visual ques to identify where you last damaged and enemy and were he might be vulnerable. I even enjoyed the skill it required to use a LRM boat effectively by actually having to move into line of sight and direct fire range to get my own locks. I also miss the skill involved with being good at reading the battlefield and being able to position and re-position myself to effectively cover my team, where needed, with ECM. I also miss the skill it required to use TAG and NARCs effectively to counter ECM effects and allow your LRM boats to lay waste to the enemy.

However I keep forgetting that MWO players don't want skill to be important. Instead they want bright red arrows telling them where the enemy is and to just stand back 800m behind a hill and push "R" and "left mouse" and do 1000 damage. I mean a game requiring skill actually takes effort you know and if you have to put effort into the game, how can you be stuffing your faces with Cheesy Puffs and Pizza and drinking a beer while playing at the same time?

This pretty much sums up why we have 360m BAP in the game and why people don't like ECM.

^THIS^
Nothing more to say!

[Jakob Knight]

Phex, on 20 November 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

^THIS^
Nothing more to say!

Funny, but I remember much the same argument when LRM and Streak players stated that ECM was too powerful, and they were all told 'learn to play' by the ECM users. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, how quickly the rhetoric changes.

Bottom line: ECM was always doing far too much and being relied upon to do things it was never supposed to be doing. Now, that has been reduced (not removed), and those who have become comfortable with it's over-powered nature feel they are losing something. Better, I think, to ask 'Should ECM still be affecting anything beyond it's 180m radius?' Since it is still doing so and affecting things it should not, I would still argue ECM is still extremely powerful for what it was supposed to be.

ECM users have no leg to stand on, and as long as they are doing what ECM is supposed to be doing (long range scouting beyond 350 meters), then they are fine. Nothing more to say.

[GalmOne]

I think the problem of BAP vs ECM is at the moment even more present becouse of another aspect

Forgetting the fact that 360 meters is probably too much for the counter range i believe that there is also a problem that comes from the BAP itself
Inner Sphere mechs only chance to increase their targeting speed is dependant on either modules or BAP while for clans this can also be done with the Targeting Computer, leading to a good number of IS mechs carrying BAP but an almost nonexistant number of mechs carrying ecm at the moment

BAP can deny only 1 ECM in range but the current ratio ecm to bap is probably higher that 2 or 3 x match

What BAP should do in my opinion is deny ECM cover for mechs in it's range (a reduced range of around 200-250 that is) and it should not be able to counter ECM directly on an ECM mech, leaving that role solely to counter ECM
So for example if one ECM mech and one BAP mech stand on top of eachother all mechs in a 200 meter radius will not have ECM except for the mech with ECM equipped, with this setup it is also possible to deny ECM cover further than the ECM range depending on the position of a mech, for example, if a mech is at the range limit of the ECM (180m) a bap equipped mech will only need to be in a 200m radius to deny it's effect, leading to a potential negating range of 180+200 = 380m

[Mcgral18]

zeyzak, on 19 November 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

You forget however that every mech in this game gets free C3 systems. if you're going by tabletop then ECM doesn't need to be as strong because teams don't automatically share targeting data.

There is no C3 in MWO. There is no gECM either.

The Jesus Box is a bastardization of Stealth Armour, Null Sig and Angel ECM. It should turn your engine DHS into essentially SHS by generating 1 H/s because of the Stealth Armour properties.

[Certissian]

A complete rework of everything regarding electronic warfare and sensors would be awesome, but that takes time and manpower, so for now we'll have to make do with what we have.

Lore is a non-factor, really, as many un-lorey things have been added or adjusted in game, such as targeting information being automagically shared between mechs and all of it for gameplay reasons. So it's strictly a question of improving gameplay and that's what we ought to look at.

I've always enjoyed being a support pilot, enabling others to launch ambushes, protecting against electronic warfare, missiles and the like and getting my teammates information. In the role as a scout/support/ewar Mech I've been almost exclusively in a light accompanying my lance or a bigger group. Using ECM, Tag, Narc and my mobility I hopefully was able to keep my opponent guessing where the next attack is going to come from. I'm sharing the same experience as other pilots using ECM in shortish to mid range to cover a flanking attack, that BAP has become very prevalent, especially with the addition of Clan Streaks. Usually there's always at least one BAP Mech in range, especially on brawly maps and since the changes it's been very rare that my ECM added anything to the match, other than 1.5 tons of dead weight after the first 2-3 minutes.

It's true, ECM was very powerful in the right hands, but I never felt like there was nothing I could do about it. You could still use direct fire weapons, UAVs counter it, Tag counteres it, BAP countered it completely at closer ranges, Narc counters it, being within 200m counters it for you and another ECM in counter mode counters it completely. Still, in the end it can only do two things: Covering friendly Mechs within a radius of 180m against targeting and countering your opponent's ECM. Now, in my experience, it's no longer useful in the role I enjoy playing and it's less effective than a BAP at countering ECM for the same tonnage. Plus BAP adds a myriad of other bonuses to the Mech using it, thus making it much more valuable. The BAP range bonus also reduces the usefulness of the Narc and Tag, almost reducing them to pure LRM-support modules.

I think, as many have suggested, reducing the range of BAP to 270m - 1.5 times the range of ECM - would make for a decent middle-ground.

An alternative would be to reduce the effective range of an ECM for every BAP in range of it by a certain amount (fixed or a percentage), thus not completely countering it, but making it harder to use it effectively. The other forms of ECM-counters can still be used as before, countering ECM completely for a certain time. In that way it's somewhat similar to how it worked in Mechcommander.

Of course a mix of the two, or something completely different might work as well.

[DYSEQTA]

Just to add to the list of counters in the post above. Even PPCs counter it.